
I have been reading and watching (mostly on PoxNews) the development of a revolutionary protest by so-called conservatives across the country to the impending socialist dictatorship being birthed by President Barack Obama. I am not so sure who actually started it, but the Tea Bag Rebellion seems to be picking up steam and has even been posted to a couple of topics on this message board. The funny thing is that everything they are trying to do, and the reasons they claim to be doing it, are incredibly -- hilariously so -- contradictory and self-defeating. Here's why ...
The Tea Bag Movement … whether started by Rick "Mad as Hell" Santelli (but not so mad as to avoid sharing his anger with Jon Stewar), Michelle Malkin or Glen Beck … is essentially being staged as a protest against "Liberal" bailouts and pork-barrel spending and in favor of tax cuts for the wealthiest five percent of all Americans. I may be mistaken, but it appears they are opposed to President Obama allowing the tax cuts introduced by President Bush from expiring, but also opposed to President Obama signing into law the largest middle-class tax cut in history. They also seem to oppose helping middle-class and working class "losers" or "greedy and stupid consumers" keep their homes (and, by the way, your neighbor's mortgage problem IS your problem … just watch what happens to your property values when there is a foreclosure on your block).
These policies, say the Tea Baggers, are a sign of the coming "liberal fascism" and tyranny. Of course, none of these protesters said a word (then OR now) about the potential tyranny of the Bush administration. You know … illegal searches and seizure, illegal electronic eavesdropping, and torture. You know … the suspension of habeas corpus, indefinite detention without access to a lawyer, the right to declare anyone an "enemy combatant". Or how about record deficits, the doubling of the national debt, and a growing economic crisis that threatens social stability. None of that was tyrannical. But allowing tax cuts for the wealthiest five percent to expire is but a step a way from totalitarianism.
So, at the instigation of a well-connected network of right wing talking heads, people are rebelling against higher taxes for the rich and for corporations by purchasing tea bags and dumping them into various waterways. In sum: higher tax-rates (equitable to those assessed during the economically vital and growing '90s) for the wealthy and corporations are tyrannical Tax cuts for the middle class are also tyrannical? Therefore, protest the idea of "no taxation without representation" by emulating the Boston Tea Party.
There's only one problem.
The Boston Tea Party was in response to a massive corporate tax cut!
Here's where an understanding of history (not mythology, or selectively recalled "history") comes in handy. In 1773, there was essentially one multinational corporation in the world … the British East India Company. It tottered on the edge of bankruptcy (because of imprudent loans, wild speculation, and unsustainable growth … ironically enough). To bail out the corporation, some members of the English Parliament proposed making it a loan. The East India Company, however, did not want a loan. Instead, it brought in its heavy gun lobbyists to appeal to more than half of the members of Parliament who were shareholders in the corporation to pass the Tea Act, instead. The Tea Act practically eliminated the duty on British tea exported by the East India Company to the American colonies. If you don't believe me, check out the subtitle of the Act, as it was proposed in Parliament: "An at to allow a drawback of the duties of customs on the exportation of tea to any of his Majesty's colonies or plantations in America; to increase the deposit on bohea tea to be sold at the East India Company's sales; and to empower the commissioners of the treasury to grant licences to the East India Company to export tea duty-free."
The idea behind the law was that lower taxes meant lower prices, which meant the East India Company would sell boatloads of more tea in America. Sounds like a precursor to supply-side Reaganomics, to me. So, to solve the economic crisis impending with the collapse of a major global corporation, Britain passed a major tax cut. Which, ironically, is the exact same solution being proposed by conservative tea bag revolutionaries today.
The colonists, as we know, weren't too happy with the tea. They invented a slogan to justify their opposition ("No taxation without representation"), but the practical and pressing thing against which they protested was that the lifting of the duty undercut a growing merchant class in America, whose profitable business in tea was severely undercut. So political activists, led by LIBERALS such as Sam Adams, organized the Sons of Liberty and boycotted the English tea. When the British ships actually landed in Boston Harbor, they then carried out their famous protest.
This is a major whoops for Glen Beck (et. al.). It turns out that they are politically more in line with King George III than with the American patriots and the Sons of Liberty. The Tea Baggers of today are emulating a protest AGAINST a corporate tax cut by SUPPORTING tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy. Additionally, King George opposed a corporate bailout loan, as do the Tea Baggers. Finally, these "revolutionaries" are buying their tea bags from the corporations, rather than just pilfering them. Maybe this is why Glen Beck, with crocodile-tear stained face to prove his sincerity, closed his show the other day by saying, "Believe in something, even if it's wrong. Believe in it!"
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Anyone 4 Tea?
I would like to add a couple of points to shays depiction of the Boston Tea Party. One obscure item is that a Masonic lodge in Boston had meetings scheduled for every night of the week of the Tea Party, but on the actual night of the raid, the meeting was called off for lack of participants. But they were all back the following night.
Whether the tea delivered in Boston Harbor was moldy from its long, wet transit from India after being stored too long is missing from shays portrayal of events. Whether the Briish raised the tax on locally produced American tea in order to foist off the rotten tea is another missing factor, but that would account for the 'no taxation without representation' slogan.
George Washington told us centuries ago "you can't borrow your way out of debt". Yet our 'representatives' have sold our children and grandchildren into indentured servitude as collateral for the recent 'stimulus' bill. That massive debt is now competing with the debt owed to the Baby Boomers who paid real money into Social Security for so many years, yet except for current year collections and the 'contested' accounts, has been relegated to a gigantic IOU. The head of the Trashery has no clue how to mollify the public due to the outrages of using U.S. taxes to indirectly give foreign banks billions of dollars. Congress has forsaken the will and the ability to maintain the value of U.S. currency, and is bent on reducing the impact of the debt by devaluing the U.S. dollar. The presses are running even as you read this. Our 'leaders' have been unable to come up with a believable reason why the economy took such a dive that can counter the 'conspiracy' reasons of the Bilderberg group making its push for a New World Order at the cost of U.S. sovereignty. The fact that the same group of 'advisors' that directed us into this mess have switched their faces around a little and are the 'experts' telling us how to get out of this mess is not lost on the Freepers, who are behind the Tea Party idea.
Buttons and stickers can be found here - https://store.afa.net/c-64-tea-party-buttons-and-stickers.aspx
I'll Take My Freedom -
You Keep the Change!
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I wrote a (typically) long response to this message yesterday, and when I selected "post comment" button, this stinking message board told me I wasn't registered and refused to post it. Bah. I'll make this one short, since I just wrote a fairly lengthy response to your Masonic source (at the top of the current thread). Your "freepers" are targeting the wrong audience ... here's what they should be doing instead of protesting a tax increase on the wealthy and the corporate lot (actually, not an "increase" at all, but simply letting a big present given to them in the last administration to lapse), which in turn effectively amounts to a protest against a tax cut for 95% of the population:
(1) Use the Sherman Anti-Trust Law to break up any corporation "too big too fail".
(2) Any corporation or financial institution that comes to the Fed for assistance must be restructured; current management shown the door; the various divisions broken up into independent and unrelated companies under NEW management made up of entrepreneurs and businessmen willing to show integrity and honesty to run a new company efficiently and legally.
(3) Reassert the regulatory power of government to license and monitor private business. It has been done effectively, efficiently and fairly in the past and can be done so again.
(4) Re-instate the Securities Transfer Excise Tax (STET) that effectively worked between 1914 and 1963 (and was used to finance both the Civil War and the Spanish American War) in which a minimal tax (e.g., .25% or so) is assessed on every stock transaction; the money goes to a separate fund maintained by the Treasury that can be loaned to businesses in distress at reasonable interest rates; because it is repaid when (or if) companies reestablish security, it is a fund that generally increases rather than decreases ... when it rises above a preset threshhold, money can be used to fund otherwise expensive social welfare programs (e.g., universal health care); the tax takes the "gamble" out of investment and forces investors to return to the so-called good old days when they invested in a company not for speculative reasons of reselling the stock for profit (and all the games and manipulations that this tempts big-time players to engage in) but because they had faith in the long-term security of the product or management of the company.
(5) End voodoo supply-side economics and return to basic supply-and-demand economics.
(6) Provide relief to honest American citizens who pay their taxes on time, do not over-extend their credit, and who may be struggling in the current economic downturn caused by Bilderbergs and wannabe reckless gamblers.
(7) Support small business creation and even networking (it IS a global economy, after all) through tax incentives, paying the health insurance policies they are strapped with paying, and providing them with the means to meet necessary environmental laws or restrictions rather than punishing them for not being able to.
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 183
Shays perhaps you are missing the forest for the trees. The analogy - corporate bailouts - is telling in the anger it exudes from those who feel the rules were being changed in a grossly unfair manner. Not unlike the "why should I suffer so that incompetent companies can flourish" sentiment today. The colonies were being taxed without voting representation - this was merely one of the straws breaking the camels back. Historically, you could also technically say the Civil War was about states rights, which is true on paper, but I think you know better.
This huge public outrage now about federal action grossly misaligned with public sentiment is dangerous but completely American. Sublimating it into wearing a teabag to symbolize sympathy with public outrage in the past is, frankly, welcome. Fortunately, we can recall our "kings"; the colonists could not. Hopefully the recall will occur before Amercia is Bankrupt with the Obamonomics.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I am not quite sure how to address your comments. My understanding is that the tea bag protests are in response to a whole gang of recent events that include (but probably aren't limited to) the bailout of mismanaged financial institutions, the American Recovery & Reinvestment Act, and the so-called "tax increases" proposed by Barack Obama in his budget. As such, they are organized by people from the right (clearly not the left, though the left also criticizes Obama for not being daring enough) and directed against the President (in particular) and the Democratic Congress (in general). Of course, these same people did not see fit to protest when the previous administration gave away the horse, the buggy, and even the barn itself to those very same financial managers and wall street speculators, or their most close corporate supporters ranging from Halliburton to the coal-mining industry and power companies on the Klamath River (et. al.) ... which of course undermines their credibility now, as far as I am concerned. But I suppose it takes some people a bit of time being hit over the head with a corporate club before they decide to protest against it.
It's just that the "tea bag" symbol suggests it has something to do with taxes and/or government support of corporations. And it smacks me as being a bit disingenuous to protest against allowing certain tax cuts to lapse (as opposed to claim that Barack Obama is "increasing taxes") when those proposals are being made by a man who ran on a campaign of allowing those tax cuts to lapse and won the right to enact his campaign promises by a sizable majority. Again, the original Boston Tea Party was organized in protest against significant tax cuts awarded to a wealthy and powerful corporation (and which, when enacted, threatened to drive thriving competition within the Colonies out of business) by a ruling body over which the colonists had no control. Today's "tea baggers" are protesting against a tax increase assessed on the wealthy and powerful who have run our economy into the ground, and who influence legislation and political control in ways denied to the very people protesting in their support. At least, as you point out, we can (theoretically) still recall our elected leaders (in the next election) ... try "recalling" the CEO of AIG or Merrill-Lynch or Bank of America (or whatever), or influencing policy decisions of the Halliburton board of directors that seems to so deeply rely upon the American Treasury Department for its profits.
So I am suggesting that those seeking to protest in demonstration of their anger and frustration over government actions are either misled or woefully undereducated. The target of their anger is misplaced ... it should not be directed at an administration forced to address a failing economy and trying to prevent its collapse, but instead should be targeted at the financial managers and corporations who have become "too big to fail", and whose unrestricted and unregulated behavior is the primary cause for our current financial distress. Who was it that deregulated the financial industry (and the energy futures industry) that created the "Enronization" of corporate America? How have these global corporations become so large? Who enabled and/or empowered them to combine and consolidate and merge (whether in a friendly or hostile manner) to the point that when their arrogant belief that corporate expansion was never-ending caught up to them, that their failure in judgment threatened to bring down the entire United States of America?
A responsive government would reign in the power and behavior of corporate leaders. It might even break up the corporations into truly independent (not cross-managed) business entities. For example, instead of GM scaling back and manufacturing four or five "models", the Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick (etc.) divisions should become independent companies operating out of scores of old factories that have been closed so that "successful" manufacturing operations could be shipped overseas (how are GMs partnerships in Asia, Europe and Latin America holding up, by the way?) ... then those new companies, under new management and obviously smaller than the parent monopolies from whence they were created, would manufacture on a much smaller scale and sell what they make, rather than making however many they want to manufacture and then doing whatever is necessary in order to sell them (including expensive advertising campaigns, extending excessive credit, or pulling marketing stunts that hide the real cost of the final product).
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 246
Mr. Hays, how can you forget the spirited communications with the Congress over the bail-out bill? Conservatives literally burst veins on the proposal and we spent a tremendous amount of energy trying to get Congress to understand that we did NOT want the bail-out. They did not listen to us then, so we have gotten more vocal and visible. We also managed to get President Bush to admit that he had abandoned his free market principles. Personally I prefer an open market to a free one, but we have discussed that before.
This general attitude and protest began before President Obama was inaugurated and continues because he and the Congress have gone even further in the face of overwhelming evidence that this is not what the people want. On one hand, I admire and appreciate the moral courage that it takes to hold and press on a position that is unpopular with the people at large. I appreciated it during the last administration and I appreciate it now. On the other hand, I truely believe that this moral courage is going to drive us down the wrong road and will delay any real recovery. I am further worried that the social programs that are getting huge boosts in the President's budget will push us so far over toward a socialist society that it will be even harder to come back.
In general response to your coments about being upset at corporations that have become "too big to fail", I do not believe that there is any such thing. We should have let them fail before and we should let them fail now. Competition and innovation will rise from the ashes, as it has in the past when our anchor institutions failed. We Americans are an innovative and stubborn lot and we will find a way to prevail. We are and should be angry with a succession of administrations and Congresses that have failed to do their Constitutionally provided role of regulating commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes. This administration seems to be attempting to go even further than those in the past and to actually begin to nationalize commerce as opposed to regulating it. This is very scary and well beyond the boundaries of constitutional authority.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I appreciate your comments and your thoughts. In some respects, I agree with your position and opinion; in most, however, I beg to differ. It looks like there is potential for agreement on a few points, but probably deep difference on the major ones.
In regards to the notion of a corporation becoming "too big to fail", I suspect this is a chicken/egg dispute. I think no business entity should be allowed to grow so large, and we actually have laws on the books and a tradition of using said laws to prevent that from happening. The chief amongst those laws is the Sherman Antitrust Act, last used to break up AT&T. Unfortunately, antitrust legislation has not been the focus of primarily conservative administrations in the intervening time (though NAFTA, a huge act of big government intervention in the so-called free marketplace, was clearly a Democratic program); in fact, quite the opposite is true -- a fairly obvious trend toward consolidation, merger, take-over and centralization of power has been the norm rather than the anomaly. So, in late 2008, we are "suddenly" confronted by a crisis in the financial management of risk (i.e., unregulated gambling where the house no longer took a cut of the action) on a global scale. The collapse of the housing bubble and the monstrous economic crisis it would entail was by no means not foreseen or predicted, but those in power preferred to look the other way, perhaps hoping it would not come to pass on their watch.
Bummer, it did. So when the gambling caught up with the reckless, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they may have been, it was a fait accompli. The crisis arose in determining what to do about it while softening the blow to society as a whole as much as possible. You say conservatives opposed providing a bailout program, but so did progressives. This is an area of tentative agreement.
The differences arise in what to do about the crisis. You say conservatives believed the chips should just have been allowed to fall where they may, trusting we would survive whatever calamity ensued. But you did not honestly address what the calamity would be like, or how deeply it would disrupt people's lives. Remember, Republicans adopted a similar argument in 1929 and Herbert Hoover did everything within his power to let the economic chips fall where they may ... and look how well that worked out.
I think the majority of Americans rejected that approach, and clearly expressed a preference to avoid another Depression, if that was at all possible. I don't know too many people who wanted to lose everything without their government at least trying to do anything within its power that might help us avoid it.
So, conservatives opposed the bailout. What did they offer as an alternative? Nothing, as far as I can tell, except take our lumps and then rebuild afterwards (without even making an effort to project how long that would be, or how deep the hole would be). As I said, most progressives opposed the bailout, too ... at least as proposed by the President and Hank Paulson. True progressives argued that government should seize control of the troubled financial institutions and place them in receivership, similar to what the FDIC does to troubled banks. They further argued that the bad assets should be isolated and dealt with, that the companies should be restructured and broken up into smaller entities, managing executives told to take a hike, and then sold to new PRIVATE ownership to start lending once again.
Moderates (both Dems and Republicans) sought a middle ground ... they favored giving money to the financial institutions, but also placing clear restrictions on how the money could be used and requirements for public accountability. You may have noticed that the bailout bill that finally passed contained those restrictions, but somehow they all magically disappeared once Paulson got his hands on the money and the authority. You will also note that they have reappeared in the new administration.
At no time has President Obama indicated a willingness to nationalize commerce or manufacturing. I personally think such an action would be long overdue for some segments of the economy, but clearly the President does not agree with my philosophy. I am not so certain that he has not ruled out temporary receivership for failed or troubled corporations (and through Secretary Geithner, has pretty clearly stated that he wants FDIC-type powers to address the non-bank financial institutions). Such steps may be a necessary to help some of these companies get beyond their self-created morass. Would you be willing to accept a publicly operated receivership of failed or troubled companies as a first step before just letting them collapse?
I may be wrong, but I think what you are more strongly opposed to are the social programs President Obama thinks are essential to strengthen -- especially after 30 years of deterioration. All I can say to that is that you are most certainly entitled to oppose them, and I am sure you expressed your opposition in the last election. There's only one small problem. Nothing that Barack Obama is proposing is new. He is not the Bait-and-Switch Executive ... everything he is proposing in his budget comes from his campaign promises that a majority of Americans heard and supported. I think he has the right to at least attempt to enact legislation that supports the promises he made, publicly, and that got him elected to do.
Look at it this way ... if we weren't consistently misspending billions of dollars on weapons we don't need because there is no enemy against we need to use them, if weren't busy propping up an economic empire with at least 42% of our budget, and if we weren't also spending hundreds of billions of dollars on an energy source that most admit will be gone within fifty years ... we would have plenty of money to spend on health care, schools, development of new energy sources, and social welfare.
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 246
When I state that no company or business enterprise is too big to fail, I do not intend that no business be allowed by the government to become too big to fail, but literally that if it is failing, it should be allowed to fail. Period. I expect the government to establish and enforce necessary regulation that ensures that an opportunity for competition and prevents predatory business practices, but I do not expect nor do I desire a regulatory structure that artificially limits a company's growth or profitability.
Seeing as you want to present the example of President Hoover, I will point out that he made an ernest effort to spend the country out of the depression, and we do indeed know how that all worked out.
You asked what conservatives offered instead of the massive bail-outs? Nothing. We already have the FDIC, so banks are secured, and strong companies should be allowed to purchase any viable pieces of the failing companies that they felt that they could afford/use. There should be no provisions that require the bundling of toxic assets with valuable assets, let the toxic assets fall out of the system through the bankrupcy system. As far as the people who are affected, that is precisely why we need to encourage charitable contributions as opposed to building government reliance. The community can, and in my humble opinion, would care for their own. The American people have done it in the past and we would do it again. This country was build by individual achievement and individual contribution, but always by the community acting in it's own self interest.
It is not that I am opposed to social programs, I have absolutley no problem with states or local government providing social welfare programs, if the State constitutions so provide. I firmly believe that local councils and municipal agencies should look to local needs and encourage programs to address them. I do not believe that the federal government has a legitimate constitutional authority to go beyond the enumerated powers of Congress. So it should get out of health care, education, development of energy sources, and all forms of social welfare. The further that government gets from the people, the less responsive it is and the less accountable. I want that government that is furthest away, i.e. the federal government, to have the least money and authority over my daily actions, and the government that is closest to me, and therefore most accountable to me, to have the greater impact. The federal Government should be held to account by the states, who are held to account by the municipalities and county/parish boards. In this way we return our government to the republic it was founded as and move away from the plutocracy it has become.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
AFrank, I often find your arguments compelling. Can you be more specific regarding what it is you disagree with in what you unfortunately call Obomonomics? Of course you are referring to the realignment of our economic policies recommended by the bi-partisan conservative and liberal advisors to President Obama.
The taxation without representation statement does not have any weight because we just had a an election that had one of the largest voter turnouts in history. So it is impossible to claim any taxation without representation.
Is it the Keynesian nature of these corrections and the taxation of the wealthy that irritates you so much? I am curious to know.
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 246
Please provide even one conservative advisor to President Obama. And I am not referring to a registered Republican, I am referring to someone who has a track record as a fiscal conservative.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
I repeat Robert Gates and before we get a knee jerk reaction please read his distinguished biography. From Eagle Scout to his current position Gates has unparalleled fiscal and other conservative credentials.
President Obama is getting flack from people like you because he is not conservative enough and he is getting flack from liberals because some of them think he is too conservative. Actually he is just what we need, pragmatic.
Now if we can just keep the lunatic fringe groups like the Mad Hatters and the Not So Swift Boaters from success in their propaganda efforts maybe, just maybe this fine leader will be able to mitigate some of the horrific damage done by the terrible Bush administration and his Republican Congress.
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 246
While I have a great deal of respect for Secretary Gates, he is not a conservative. Please do read his bio, and then go and look at his record of opinions. http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/biographydetail.aspx?biographyid=115
He was on the Board of Directors and the Executive Committee American Council on Education and on the Board of Directors of the National Association of State Universities and Land Grant Colleges. These are not organizations that are considered fiscally conservative in any manner and are generally considered socially liberal. I invite you to look at their official websites and brows through their commissions and initiatives. http://www.acenet.edu and https://www.aplu.org/ respectively. By the way, I have no problems with peoiple who are social liberals, as I am one. I have problems with trying to identify someone who is neither a fiscal conservative nor a social conservative as a "conservative" just because he is more conservative than those around him. He is about as conservative as Senator McCain, but without the fiscal bonefides.
I do not agree with your premise that President Obama is pragmatic, I have seen little to none of the pragmatism that I had hoped for. He is a dyed-in-the-wool socialist and is working very hard to push his socialist agenda. I am a libertarian and strongly object to the growth and reach of the nanny state.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
On the Other Hand ...
... Many years later, Sir Winston Churchill—Prime Minister, Historian and Freemason—commented on the Tea Act of Parliament that had given the East India Company a monopoly on tea. Brother Churchill called it “a fatal blunder”.
The Tea Act put a small tax on the East India Tea. It was actually cheap tea that had been stored in warehouses in England. However, the East India Tea Company was bankrupt, so Parliament gave them a monopoly. Tea was to be sold by the Consignees (tea agents) of the one company. This gave the Con-signees a tea monopoly in their area. Keeping the small tax on tea would just prove that Parliament still had the power to tax. But . . . it didn’t work!
In New York, Philadelphia and Charleston, the Consignees for the tea resigned their Commissions at the request of the Sons of Liberty. With no Con-signees to pay the tax and sign for the tea, the East India Company tea ships had to turn around and sail back to England with their cheap tea.
But Boston was different! The Consignees would not resign. Two sons of the Governor and a son-in-law were Consignees. When the Governor’s family is in the tea business the ships cannot leave the harbor.
The Tea Act stated that tea “remaining twenty days unloaded” was subject to seizure by the Customs House and sold for nonpayment of duties. Once the tea was in the Governor’s hands, he could dispose of it secretly to local merchants. When Governor Hutchinson again refused to let the tea ships go on the night before December 17th, (the 16th was the end of the 20 day limit for unloading), the “Mohawks” seated in the balcony at the Old South Meeting Hall took matters into their own hands.
There never would have been a Tea Party if the ships could have left before December 17th. Several of the Brothers of the St. Andrews Lodge did their part in trying to turn the tea ships around.
Brother William Molineux acted as spokesman for the Sons of Liberty. He and Brother Joseph Warren led a crowd of 300 from the Liberty Tree to the Customs House to confront the Consignees. Would these tea agents resign and send the tea ships back to England? The Governor’s sons refused and moved to Fort William under military protection. Just three years before Brother Molineux and Brother James Otis (St. John’s Lodge) had led a crowd of a thousand patriots to confront the Gover-nor’s sons who were importing tea and hiding it in a warehouse against the nonimportation agree-ments. In that tea business, the Hutchinsons sur-rendered the tea and the money for the tea they had already sold. Brother James Otis was the Mason who gave us the saying “Taxation without represen-tation is Tyranny!”.
Brother John Hancock was the Colonel for the Governor’s Cadet Corps who guarded the tea ships. The night before the Tea Party he was aboard the tea ships inspecting his troops. Both he and Brother Joseph Warren had served as Orators at the Com-memoration of those who had died at the Boston Massacre.
Brother John Hancock was the richest merchant in New England. He served as Moderator for a mass Town Meeting of 5,000 who voted to turn the tea ships around. He was a member of the Committee of Selectmen, who were the leading tradesmen of Boston, who met with the Governor and the tea Consignees to try to convince them to let the ships go.
Brother John Rowe was the owner of one of the tea ships, the Eleanor. He was also a Selectman anc promised to use his influence with the Governor tc return the tea ships and the tea to England. Brothel Rowe was the Grand Master of the St. John’s Grand Lodge of Massachusetts (Moderns). In his diary he called the dumping of the tea “a disastrous affair”.
On the day before the Tea Party, Brother Joseph Warren met with Brother John Rowe in a concern for his “ship and cargo”. Brother Warren was tht Grand Master of the Grand Lodge (Ancients) Brother Warren also went to the Customs House with the owner of the tea ship, Dartmouth. All exits to the harbor were blocked. By law the Customs Officials cannot release the ship unless the Con signees unloaded the tea and paid the tax. The next day the Customs Officials were to seize the tea according to law.
In the final appeal to the Governor by the Select-men, Covernor Hutchinson offered to give the tea ship Dartmouth military escort to Castle Island and Fort William where his sons, as Consignees, would unload the tea and pay the tax. The owner of the Dartmouth did not want to move his ship with the help of a 60-gun warship.
During the 19 days prior to the Tea Party, Brother Paul Revere served with the North End Caucus Guard, who prevented the Consignees from unload-ing the tea, wanting it instead returned to England. The Consignees blamed the guard for not unloading; the tea and the guard blamed the Consignees for not returning the tea to England.
After the Tea Party, Brother Paul Revere mountedhis horse and carried the news to New York. Whena tea ship arrived there, the Consignees resigned and the tea ship returned to England. The news was taken to Philadelphia and beyond. There were no more Consignees for the East India Tea Company. The English said that the Americans lost their taste for tea because they had a peculiar way of mix-ing it with salt water.
Order tea and you were a Tory. Order coffee an you were a Patriot!
America has been drinking coffee ever since.
Bro Edward Cair is a member of Southern Calilornia Research Lodge. He presents the story of “The Boston Tea Party “ in an extremeiy readable format. It is also factual! So many stories about the “Tea Party” have been told that it is sometimes hard to separate fact from fiction. But in these pages the story is told as accurately as known facts will allow!
from - http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/mar03/boston_tea_party.htm
also - http://www.oldsouthmeetinghouse.org/osmh_123456789files/BostonTeaPartyParticipants.aspx
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Cutting and pasting a patriotic myth from someone named "Bro Edward Cair" of "Southern California Research Lodge" makes for fine reading, and even smacks of authenticity. But "Bro Edward Cair" omits a few details from his account that otherwise is fairly accurate. It is in those omissions, however, that we learn "the rest of the story" (to quote a deceased but beloved seeker of truth).
I will begin by repeating my claim that the protest in Boston that we now call the Boston Tea Party was organized and carried out as a direct protest against a tax BREAK given to a multinational corporation that would enable it to exert unregulated monopoly of commerce in the American Colonies.
The Tea Act of 1773 was not designed to raise revenue in the American colonies, and in fact imposed no new taxes. It was designed as a bailout of the British East India Company, which teetered on the edge of bankruptcy and was burdened with 18,000,000 pounds of unsold tea stored in London warehouses. While the history of the East India multinational corporation is interesting, in and of itself, let's just agree that financial collapse was imminent unless the conservative politicians of Parliament and/or King George -- all major stockholders in the company (a clear conflict of interest, of course) -- did something to save it.
In case you have forgotten, in mercantilist England all imports and exports had to pass through London (or properly licensed English ports) on their way to or from the various colonies, which in turn acted to supply raw materials for manufacture or as markets for manufactured goods. The duty on tea in the mid-eighteenth century was about two and half shillings per pound. The Tea Act ("an Act to allow the drawback of the duties of customs on the exportation of tea to any of his Majesty's colonies or plantations in America") allowed the East India Company … and the East India Company ALONE … to export its tea directly to the colonies without having to pay that tax, and only pay the Townshend Act import duty of three pence a pound (the duty ALL importers of tea had to pay ... if you are interested, I can teach you about the history of the Townshend Act, too).
The tea may have been "moldy" as the account you cite reports (then again, since the Indian tea of the East India Company was far superior to the teas American merchants imported, it stands to reason that being businessmen, the Americans might have labeled that tea as "moldy" as much for propaganda purposes as for "truth in advertising"), but it was definitely cheaper than any other tea available to colonists. In fact, members of Parliament were truthfully confused by why the colonists would object to cheaper tea. What they failed to take into account was that colonial merchants already openly competed with the British East India Company (while others operated a lucrative black market import business, whose very existence was based on not paying any duties, whatsoever). Those operating legitimate businesses were forced to continue paying the Townshend duties (like the East India Company was) AND the duty paid in London (the tax break given to the East India Company to stimulate business). This threatened to give the East India Company a virtual monopoly on legal tea sales in America, and essentially seemed like a method for driving American merchants out of business.
As stated in your embellished account, East India Company ships were denied entry to the ports of New York and Philadelphia. Cargo was offloaded in Charleston, but left to rot. In contrast, the Royal Governor of the Massachusetts colony stubbornly held the ships in port (in part because of his clear conflict of interest, similar to that of members of Parliament and the Crown). Meanwhile, the colonists refused to offload it. The duties referred to in Bro Cair's account may or may not have been at issue, but they were the Townshend Duties that everyone had to pay (including the East India Company), and were not what this dispute was about, at all.
The colonists were fully aware of the behaviors of the East India Company around the world. You might wish to look up a person writing under the pen-name of "Rusticus", who published a widely circulated pamphlet called The Alarm during this period. He clearly warned Americans of the power of the East India company to wage war, stir up rebellion, unthrone kings, operate as a monarchy, and to create such social upheaval that hundreds of thousands of people died from resulting famine.
An eyewitness in Boston had his memoirs published in 1834 (participants swore themselves to secrecy for fifty years). His name was George R.T. Hewes, and his memoir (I have a second-edition copy, which I have held since my post-graduate days in college) is entitled, Retrospect of the Boston Tea Party with a Memoir of George R.T. Hewes, a Survivor of the Little Band of Patriots Who Drowned the Tea in Boston Harbor in 1773. Thom Hartmann, a progressive talk show host here in Portland, was speaking about this very book the other day, so I got it out and checked his reference. He got it right. Hewes wrote, "The East India Company received permission to transport tea, free of all duty, from Great Britain to America …" and "it was no longer the small vessels of private merchants, who went to vend tea for their own account in the ports of the colonies, but, on the contrary, ships of an enormous burthen, that transported immense quantities of this commodity … the colonies were now arrived at the decisive moment when they must cast the dye, and determine their course …"
And it wasn't as if the Founding Fathers forgot about the dangerous nature of corporations being too closely connected to politicians when they finally got around to writing laws regarding their incorporation and regulation. They of course put nothing in the Constitution regarding incorporation, instead leaving that matter to the states. This is because the states ALL had draconian laws regarding corporations ... their size, their function, their life-span, their inability to participate in politics, and so on. Check out the history of incorporation in this country, and note the tight controls placed on what they could (or could not) do prior to the rise of post-Civil War graft and corruption which opened the door for their re-emergence as a bane on capitalism.
For corporations ARE a bane on capitalism. They destroy "free markets" by controlling or monopolizing them. They stifle competition in many ways (legal and otherwise). And, in stifling competition, they also stifle creativity, industriousness, and entrepreneurship (unless they control it, themselves). They apply inordinate amounts of pressure on elected officials (again, in a number of ways), and have a distinctly unfair influence over them.
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Tea Party in Fresno
I suspect there are quite a few more planned in California, so if you see any for the Bay Area be sure to post it here.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2215805/posts
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
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I wonder if the Tea Partyers plan on taking their protest to the tent city in Fresno?
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Tea Parties In CA
This is a list of people planning TEA parties across the nation for Apr. 15th. If you have the time and don't have a job interview scheduled for that day, you might try your hand at organizing a protest. At worst case you expand your network and can also add it as recent experience in community service if you respond to the jobs created by the GIVE Act. The home page of the site has a video.
http://www.teapartyday.com/Locations.aspx
PS - the tent city outside of Sacramento has moved to the Sacramento Fairgrounds for the next 3 months on orders from the Schwartz, so don't go looking in Fresno for them. And for readers from Oregon, it looks like Eugene could use an organizer.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
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I keep telling you that your tea-party partiers are either disingenuous or are flat out aiming their anger and frustration at the wrong targets. Increasingly, as Timothy Geithner keeps parading out old-fashioned solutions to keep the old-fashioned Robber Barons well-heeled and solvent (even though by now most of us know those Emperors are not wearing any clothes except the ones they have taken off our backs), I find myself writing letters in protest of his efforts to prop up Wall Street ... and the scary implications they carry of some type of a merger between High Finance and Government into a Corporatist State that combines the worst elements of both socialism and capitalism. If all the money of the Treasury (as far into the future as you want to project) is ultimately going to be used for nothing more than to bail out speculators and gamblers, then I will join you. I see two distinct lines of spending, and some of it is ... contrary to point raised by TeaBaggers ... quite good. That spending must be supported. Pretending that "tax increases" on the wealthy are going to bankrupt us is, to put it mildly, delusional.
Joined: Mar 2008
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good god, you really are an Obamacon, eh?
If you have a regular Silicon Valley job, its really hard to make less than 125K a year, with any experience. Can't get an engineer for much less, and that is what is allegedly the heartbeat of the bay area, engineering. Two engineers in a household bingo you're at 250K, and that is without any stocks or ESPP earnings, that is just salary alone.
Suddenly we're all rich and wealthy. I love how people forget what it costs to live here. Seen the price on a house suitable for a family lately, in a neigborhood you'd want to raise your family in? at 4x the national average, MINIMUM, you'd think more people here would be skeptical of the specious argumentation that 250K a year in income makes someone rich. Not here, not by a long shot. Rich to me means you don't need to work. That is what wealth is. If you have to work for a living you are either middle class or working class, no ifs ands or buts about it. Look it up.
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And isn't there something decidedly wrong with a society where both members of a family must work at $125K jobs, just to hold their heads above water? And what does the idea that only people making $125K a year deserve (or can afford) to live in such and such a place say about a society that theoretically bases itself on equity and equality ... not "the same" or "the same amount"? And if $125K a year isn't enough "to get by", then what does that say about a society in which the median income is about $42K? Isn't there something inherently wrong with the notion that only the top 5-10% of the population have the means to truly enjoy the fruits of everyone's labor? Put another way, there are those who say we are all created equal, and all share the same noble rights of respect and opportunity. Then there are those who say you are in it for yourself, and you deserve whatever it is that you can carve out for yourself. America has moved back and forth between the two polar opposites since its birth.
Jefferson built his vision of America on solid, yeoman farmers who had a stake in stability and responsibility. Though he was wealthy himself, he recognized the importance of a universally well-educated public, the need for ownership and respectability, and the need for an upwardly mobile society. Unfortunately, we have run out of frontier to conquer and settle, of homesteads to develop free and clear. Instead, we have adopted Adams' contemporaneous vision of the need for a wealthy and intellectual elite to make decisions and guide the riff-raff (he actually referred to the majority of Americans as the "rabble"). Republicans ... originally the party of the people and of radical reform ... quickly adopted Adams' view when capital and private wealth clearly came into the ascendency (and therefore adopted a seemingly permanent opposition to the rights of working men and women to share equitably in the generation of wealth and power). But unfettered capitalism always leads to concentration of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands, and unbridled speculation overriding the overall public good. So Roosevelt returned us to the notion that we ARE our brother's keepers, and we are better served as a society when the majority of people are "in the middle" ... even if we must keep them in the middle through artificial means. Republicans began undoing the New Deal with the election of Ronald Reagan, and after thirty years of voodoo economics (George Herbert Walker Bush's words, not some flaming liberal critic), we are once again back to an understanding that vast extremes between have and have-not are counterproductive.
I think your protest, though understandable, is aimed incorrectly ... something in our society is askew and must be changed. Times do change, but they don't always change for the better. Somewhere along the line we, as a society, have lost sight of the fact that we have much more in common with one another than we have differences (though the differences have always played a large role in keeping us apart and at each other's throats). Somewhere, we have decided it is a world of "us" and "them", and that which I have worked for belongs to me and me alone ... whereas at times in our country's history people have recognized that we all are better off if most everyone has close to the same, and only a very few are fabulously wealthy or inconceivably poor.
I hear your plea ... both of my daughters (and their husbands) make heaps of money doing the jobs they are doing, and I do not consider them "wealthy", though they are far-better off than I. One is a lobbyist for PGE and her husband an engineer for a major government laboratory in the neighborhood. The other is a CPA (and now assistant department head) for a large sporting-equipment manufacturer, and her husband an executive in a high-tech firm. As an aside, none of them actually works in their "neighborhood", but must commute at least forty-five minutes to work each day (which says a lot about the fragmented nature of our communities today, by the way). But they do live, as you describe yourself, in a "good" (or what others might describe as a "desirable") neighborhood. They could not afford to own the homes they own, travel as they travel, vacation as they vacation, have the great medical care they receive, or even provide the good schools they can offer to their children if they did not earn as much money as they earn. But then, about 95% of all other Americans cannot do ANY of those things ... or must live beyond their means in order to do so.
Sorry ... "middle-class" means "in the middle". The mean annual income in America right now is about $42,000 a year. No one earning that amount of money can afford to live in the better neighborhoods of the Bay Area, can they? Are they less deserving than engineers? I hardly think so. Do they work less hard than an engineer? Nope. Is the work they do of any less significance? Well, some would argue that it is ... but then everyone thinks the work they do is more important (or harder) than the work someone else does.
Look ... I am not an Obamacon (or any other insulting term you want to throw at me when you don't know squat about what I want or even believe in), however you define that term. You're not going to get very far having a constructive conversation when you come out swinging with what you seem to intend to be an insult. As I said, my son-in-law is an engineer. I have many professional friends who are engineers, and do not begrudge them a dime that they make nor fail to see the pain that they endure. I suspect, in some regards, that the pain is somewhat self-created ... one can live in a different home and work harder to make the neighborhood and the local school a better place than it is perceived to be (think what East Palo Alto might be like if everyone living anywhere but there lived there, instead!) ... but it is HARD to work full-shifts in demanding jobs and then come home and be super-parent and super-community member on top of it all. I understand all that.
So, all of that said doesn't amount to much of anything because I agree ... you are NOT rich. You are, however, much better off than the vast majority of people living in this country ... and because you are so much better off than 90-95% of the rest of the population, you have benefitted more by living in our country and its system of governance than an awful lot of your fellow citizens. If I were writing the tax code, I would craft the tax brackets to include factors such income to cost-of-living ratios, the number of homes that one owns, and the like. But I do not craft tax code, and ... in the current system of corporatized governance, my voice carries little weight in decisions that are made. So I vote for someone who promises to do some of the things that I feel need to be done. To wit, those things include bringing an end to government that favors business over people (under the false assumption that accumulated wealth in business will trickle down to the masses), reinstating tight regulation and oversight of financial and manufacturing interests, ending the undo influence of corporate and special-interest lobbying groups, creating a not-for-profit and affordable health care system, reversing the rapid concentration of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands, providing a safety net and a hand-up (not a hand-out) to the underprivileged, honoring the right of all citizens to be treated equally and to have equal opportunity, and reigning in the power of the military-industrial complex.
Clearly, Barack Obama is the closest thing to working toward those goals as anyone who has run for president in the last forty or fifty years. So I voted for him, even though I know I will be disappointed by his failure (or inability) to accomplish even half those things.
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
In your tax vision; What would you do with Hollywood moguls (screenplay writers, producers, directors) movie stars, talk show hosts (Oprah), famous musicians, singers, etc..., professional athletes, professional models, inherited wealth and the OLD RICH (the Kennedy's and the like), people with Magazine,Book Deals (like Obama's $500,000 one), people that are rich with assets, property, art, jewelry, etc... How would you tax these people? Why should they have more than the average American? And how do you propose to have them "give up" their wealth?
Why should the President and Congress have better pay and benefits than the average American?
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Wow, I remember responding to this message last week! Hmmm ... what's going on? Or did you post this question in two different places. Interesting ...
I think the current tax code already addresses how everyone is taxed. Right now, people are taxed on their income (not the property they own, unless it is real estate), so the moguls and rock stars and the multi-millionaires about whom you seem concerned already are assessed an income tax which, theoretically, they pay. I am not sure why they should be treated any differently than anyone else. Unless you think "my" tax vision (and, by extension, I guess you mean the progressive tax system we live in) is one of expropriation and designed to take stuff from people so it can be given to others. If that is the case, boy have you got that all messed up. The idea is not impoverish anyone or tax them into the poorhouse ... and if you think that is taking place, I certainly would like to hear about even one example ... but to assess a higher rate on those with higher incomes. The money collected goes to LOTS of things ... some of which I gather you don't agree with (understandable, because I do not agree with many of the ways that we expend taxpayer money), but plenty of which goes to things that you DO like ... only some of it to help the less fortunate in this country. And it doesn't go to those people in a way that makes them equal in wealth to the wealthier people who paid a larger share of the tax.
Your final question is interesting. Members of Congress are paid more money than Joe Citizen in the (apparently mistaken) assumption that if paid well enough, they won't be tempted to accept bribes. The idea is sound, it's just that the primary operational thought of most Americans today is based on greed, and the question of how much can I get for the smallest effort? Like all executives and managers, though, I think salaries should be pegged to the income of the people they represent.
As to health care, Barack Obama's plan (one of many being bandied around today) calls for everyone in the country receiving exactly the same health coverage that members of Congress receive.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 35
Could you at least quit using the porno-term "teabagger"? I never saw anyone engaging in such activity.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Summons to Washington?
The actor who portrays Thomas Paine received a couple of requests from the Washington, DC this past week. The first is to pass on that most of the tea received from We the People has been trashed as potentially illicit substances, so please only send in either a picture of a tea bag or the little tag. The second request was from Mr. Obama, the current occupant of the White House, who wants to talk about the videos found on YouTube. More on this story can be found here -
http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=5142
Shays recently wrote that he doesn't understand the motivation for all these tea parties. Americans have a strong sense of fair play, and pushing a spending bill without giving anyone a fair chance to examine it beforehand and determine its cause for action and intended effects greatly offends that basic moral instinct. A representative of We the People should share that moral quality without question, but actions of Congress show quite the contrary. In that sense it truly is taxation without representation. Coincidentally it is a phrase used to spark the Revolutionary War, but under slightly different circumstances.
Bear in mind that Obama only received 52% of the popular vote, and the amount of changes being introduced by his progroms greatly exceed the sense of reasonableness felt by the 48% who voted for someone else given such a slim approval differential.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I can understand people being angry. Heck, I am angry. These are trying times (enough to "try men's souls", as it were ... Thomas Paine, The Crisis). But clearly the fellow playing Tom Paine on YouTube doesn't know too much about him, nor do all the people listening to him who appear more than willing to suspend truth for the fantasy of con job. In fact, this phony call to "patriotism" -- cobbled together by misrepresenting Tom Paine and all he stood for -- is really nothing more than a thinly disguised screed against illegal immigration. Oh, the actor goes to great lengths to hide that central point by surrounding them with a grab-bag of seemingly reasonable proposals (also mostly culled from conservative Republican positions), and he directs his feigned venom at the Democratic Congress that has inherited the mess created by conservative Republican policies for the past 30 years ... but this "call to action" is a gross misrepresentation of fact and a clear indication of just how far the extreme right in this country will go to distort truth in order to impose its (failed) policies.
Now, before you get your panties in a bunch, I agree that Congress is completely out of control and out of touch with the majority of Americans. We all know, for example, that it is morally wrong and flat out nutty to be giving money to the people who created the current economic mess and allowing them to stay in power to "fix" it. We all know that government, as the biggest counterweight to the power and wealth of the financial and corporate sector, must seize the assets of all troubled banks and non-banking financial institutions before they disappear completely into the pockets and off-shore bank accounts of major executives and investors, and place them into receivership; we all know that the appointed receiver must either freeze or dispose of the toxic assets that have paralyzed the system; and we all know that once stabilized, the receiver must break the banks up into smaller, preferably local, institutions (say pre-Reagan size) and sell them back to private investors who will run them under reinstated (pre-Reagan) rules and regulations.
Most of us recognize, too, that Congress no longer represents ... as our "Thomas Paine" accurately pointed out ... to "We the People". What "Tom Paine" DIDN'T point out is to whom the Congress belongs. My previous paragraph makes it abundantly clear who buys and sells Congress, and most of us know that, too (and most of us could add the military-industrial-pharmaceutical-oil complex to the list). This is why TERM LIMITS is not the answer ... it is a typical ruling-class knee jerk "solution" that simply makes novice Congressmen more susceptible to campaign donors and their "consulting services", never allowing them to gain enough experience to stand up against the special interest groups and political action committees that write most legislation and most directly influence how "our" representatives vote. We already have term limits built into our electoral process ... every two years we get to decide whether or not we want the suckers to return to Congress.
Here's what "Thomas Paine" isn't telling you in his little videos. He is not asking that we demand that private money be taken out of elections. He is not demanding an end to campaign contributions, at all ... let alone terminating corporate and special interest donations. He is not asking that the reapportionment of Congressional districts be taken out of the hands of the majority political party. He is not asking for tighter reporting on campaign contributions, or how they are spent. He is not asking for greater transparency between elected officials and lobbyists, or for tighter reporting requirements of their interactions.
This is because conservatives do not for a moment believe in or accept the REAL Thomas Paine and the ideas he stood for. Bolstered by capital, firmly in command of the Republican Party (but also having quite a bit of influence within the Democratic Party), and firmly in command of political dialogue for over a generation, conservatives have initiated policies and programs fundamentally contradictory of the real Thomas Paine's vision and beliefs. Conservatives have subordinated the Republic -- the commonwealth, the public good -- to the marketplace and to private advantage. They have furthered the interests of corporations and the rich over those of working people, their families, their unions, and even their communities through a non-stop barrage of privatization of public service, tax breaks and advantages, and overall deregulation of corporate behavior (of what essentially amounts to common decency) that has acted to oversee a concentration of wealth and power that -- recalling the Gilded Age -- has corrupted and withered American democratic life and politics. Cleverly hidden in this "Thomas Paine" screed are various elements of the culture wars fueled by conservative Republicans, as well, which serve primarily to pose unsolvable problems over which we can all be bitterly divided. And in foreign relations, conservative Republicans have consistently pursued policies that serve to make us less free and less secure politically, economically, environmentally, and militarily. Even though "Thomas Paine" calls upon "We the People" to mail in our teabags to protest the elitist powers of the Congress, it is quite clear that he makes no proposals that will restore power to We the People; this is because, like John Adams and Alexander Hamilton before them, they promote ideas in sharp contrast to the REAL Tom Paine scorn real democracy and fear the actual people having power.
Isn't everyone pretty darn tired of being told what to do by our "leaders", rather than have our leaders ask us what we can and will do?
Look, because Real America (and the Tea Baggers) are using the Boston Tea Party to misrepresent what is going on, I am using this thread to re-educate everyone in this country who has fallen into an easily manipulated, mythical version of American History. The Boston Tea Party was NOT a protest against higher taxes, or the tyranny of non-representation. It was a protest against a TAX CUT given to a corporate favorite, in order to strengthen that corporation and give it a monopoly of trade in the Colonies. The current proposals that the Tea Baggers are protesting will give a real tax cut to 95% of the American population ... so the protesters, either knowingly or because they are being manipulated, are actually protesting a TAX CUT to the majority of Americans, and thereby saying they prefer that a tax advantage be given to the wealthiest amongst us.
Corrections to Tom Paine's portrayal, and the message contained, come in a separate post.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Part 2: Tom Paine
Thomas Paine, along with Samuel Adams, was probably the most radical (and liberal) of the American Revolutionaries. Typically, Glen Beck (ignorant crybaby that he is) misrepresents Tom Paine as a Revolutionary "pamphleteer", dismissing him and the things he actually stood for. This makes sense, because Thomas Paine would have made mincemeat of Glen Beck and the things he advocates.
Thomas Paine is considered by many to be the father of American liberalism. He was skeptical of the power of any institution. Wealth and concentrated power were anathema to Paine. It didn't matter if the power was corporate (as pointed out, the Boston Tea Party was a protest against a transnational corporate power and its umbilical connection to government), religious (The Age of Reason is a scathing attack on organized religion), or governmental (especially "kingly oppressions" of an unfettered and unchecked government).
Paine proposed and promoted countless liberal ideas generally credited to his successors. Teddy Roosevelt is usually given credit for being a "trust-buster", but it was Tom Paine who first suggested that government should not allow corporations to become entrenched and to monopolize business (he also first proposed a "minimum" or "living" wage!). Woodrow Wilson's inheritance tax, designed to prevent wealthy family empires from consuming the nation, was first proposed by Paine. FDR institutionalized the progressive income tax, but it was Thomas Paine who first described it and its fairness. He thought the best way to build a strong democracy was to tax the wealthy, providing bootstraps to the poor and a means to pull themselves up. He also suggested that money be collected and set aside to offer pensions to citizens in old age as part of a social safety net. Thomas Paine proposed international disarmament and participated in a series of international congresses to achieve it. Specifically, he said that all nations should reduce their armaments by 90% to ensure world peace. He also proposed government-supported medical assistance for the poor (Medicare), financial assistance to the poor so they could obtain minimal food (food stamps), and public assistance to help the poor obtain housing (CRA).
Most importantly, and perhaps most relevant to this discussion, Paine was an Anti-Federalist. He despised John Adams and his efforts to quash freedom of speech (Alien and Sedition Act). Thomas Paine favored decentralized government ... a strong federal government with authority in limited areas, but an even stronger local government. To this end, he would see that in today's crisis, unless we break the power of the financial oligarchy over our government, any effort to get out of the mess we are in or to make real reform will be impossible.
In the two videos we are asked to watch, the "Thomas Paine" character distracts us with populist sentiments that do not truly get at the matter of what the real Thomas Paine would see as the source of our problems. Some do. Sort of. As I said in part 1, it is a grab-bag of populist sentiments.
In the first part of this response, I suggested that some of the "Video Paine" (VP) criticisms of Congress were reasonable, but did not really get at the heart of the problem. He proposed several populist solutions (remove privileges, repeal the right to vote on their own salaries, force them to balance the budget, force them to purchase their own 401(k) and to pay into Social Security, enact term limits, and vote them all out of office if they don't even read the bills they vote on). Though all are given the same weight and sense of importance, each of these proposals is vastly different in scope and scale. The real Thomas Paine actually proposed term limits when he helped Pennsylvania draft its state constitution, so might find some value in that one. I think it is a no-brainer that our Representatives should have no more special privileges than the rest of us, but in some cases -- especially the bit about health reform -- we would all be better served if we received the same health care plan they do, rather than forcing them to accept less.
"Don't start a war you can't win" can be taken to have several meanings. "Abolish the Electoral College" is clearly a sentiment advocated by the real Thomas Paine, but the VP misstates the situation when he demands that the power to directly elect the President be put back in the hands of the People (it never was ... this was a protection inserted by the anti-democratic Federalists to make sure the "rabble" -- code in Federalistese for "people" -- did not have too much power). "Universal Service" is actually a fairly Progressive slogan, and stands out from most of the others. "English Only" is, at the other end of the spectrum, about as anti-Tom Paine a proposal as one could find ... as was the entire anti-immigrant, anti-diversity (diversity does NOT mean "disunity", as the fake VP proclaims) portions of the presentation. The real Thomas Paine would seek to protect the right of citizens to work, and to be paid a living wage, rather than have those jobs taken by workers living in the country illegally. He would support strong laws prohibiting businesses from hiring those workers, and aggressively seeking out and punishing those that did. He would argue that here again is an example of where concentrated wealth and power creates policies that allow the practice to flourish, even when it is detrimental to society as a whole.
Incidentally, the real Tom Paine would be a strong advocate of the Employee Free Choice Act, and would demand that when the illegal workers were removed from the workplace, that workers taking their place be given the right to decide whether or not they wanted to organize a union, and to decide how they wanted to do it; he would not agree that it is the employer's right to make such decisions, or to have any voice in the matter, whatsoever.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
About Those Tea Parties ...
Atlanta is planning on having Hannity speak.
As for shays, who just doesn't get it, maybe the following article can help him get a clue. But I'm guessing that as long as he thinks a temporary 'tax break for the middle class' that saves them a few hundred dollars overcomes the $2500 deficit (plus interest) from the stimulus bill alone, he'll never get it.
http://www.redstate.com/warner_todd_huston/2009/03/29/florida-govt-cance...
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Look, fakeamericazoid ... I have been a participant on this Bulletin Board in its various guises since about 2003 or 2004 and I have had "conversations" with folks like you (heck, given the way the righties in Contra Costa County have so many identity problems ... switching monikers at the drop of a hat ... maybe I have had conversations with you) for a really long time. I know, for a fact, that not a one of you witless sheople ever once said a disparaging word about the monstrous deficits that George Walker Bush imposed on the people of this country. For eight long years the wages and income of fully 95% of the American population stagnated or declined, because all the wealth they generated through their labor was being GIVEN to the wealthiest and most powerful top 5% in the form of massive tax breaks, tax incentives, tax dodges, off-shore hideouts for their cash, etc. etc. etc., given to them in 2001 and 2003. The system that you helped prop up during those eight long years ... a system that brought us perilously close to the "political tyranny" you now claim we are succumbing too ... was a plutocracy; a government of the rich, for the rich and by the rich. It was EVERYTHING you now whine and moan about, and brought to us courtesy of 30 years of neo-conservative Republican rule. Our Treasury ... allowed to be led by the nose by the moguls of Wall Street and their 12 Regional Federal Reserve Bank Chairmen (Hank Paulson and Tim Geithner among them) ... is empty. It has been pilfered by an unfunded war which raked in trillions of dollars of profits to the well-connected, no-bid buddies of the Republican Party; by unfettered and unregulated lending policies made possible by a series of laws enacted from Reagan to Phil Gramm; and by a wave of speculation and intensive gambling at the highest levels unrivaled in the history of the planet (we study the "Teapot Dome" Scandal in American history class, theoretically as a precautionary tale of what happens when unchecked political bosses reward their buddies and cronies with public largesse ... but the last eight years make Teapot Dome look like sandlot play) ... all conducted knowingly and in full-consciousness by those we entrusted to run the country.
You ... and your so-called "patriotic" type ... sat by and watched it all happening, cheering from the sidelines while howling for the heads of people like myself who dared suggest that maybe something was rotten on Pennsylvania Avenue. You were either a complicit participant or a witless fool (that's for you to know in this magical world of assumed identities and instant authority). The goal, most undoubtedly, of George W Bush and Dick "Darth Vader" Cheney was to totally bankrupt government, fulfilling Grover Norquist's proposal that it be made so small it could be drowned in the bathtub; to break it ... totally and irreparably ... so they could stand alongside the statue of Ronald Reagan in the Republican Pantheon of Democracy Busters.
They don't trust "The People" ... remember, Ronald Reagan came to power and capitalized on reaction to the phrase "Power to the People" ... the wealthy and the powerful don't want schmucks like me making decisions about how or where they can run their stinking businesses ... they know, in their elitist hearts, that NO ONE can tell them what to do. Why? Because they are ABOVE the rest of us ... they operate by a special set of rules, the fabled "rules of the market place" ... you know, the New God of the corporate state, with those magical fingers that somehow operate free of government interference (if you don't count as "interference" the manipulation of interest rates, the setting of tax policies, large armies to secure your incursions into foreign countries, a court system that has this incredibly consistent pattern of incarcerating and even executing poor people while always leaving the rich and wealthy immune from such cr*p)
As I have been pointing out, all this stinking noise about Tea Parties and the "agony" of "Thomas Paine" is nothing more than an effort to attach phony symbology like a Halloween costume over more of the same old Republican lies. Either you have been horribly misled because you do not really know squat about American history (just the fluffy cotton candy your handlers feed you), or you are a cynical manipulative liar. The American Revolutionaries were, indeed, fighting against a tyrannical government; that government had all the trapping of a democracy, but true power lay in the hands of a landed aristocracy and a growing corporate class and was expressed through the unchecked power of a single executive. Part of that power hit Americans over the head in the form of corporations ... more than half of the colonies WERE corporations (begun originally as granted charters or proprietorships) ... and they had long struggled to wrest control from the privileged hands of their corporate bosses. A tax BREAK on the wealthy and powerful East India Tea Company ... a multinational corporation with powers today's CEOs can only dream about ... designed to provide it with a trading monopoly in the New World, was the cause of the Boston Tea Party. As pointed out in a different message, Thomas Paine was everything EXCEPT a toady to the ruling class.
So here's why I think you guys have your underwear all knotted up. George W robbed the Treasury to the tune of at least $3 trillion (again ... not a ONE OF YOU said a single word about that behavior) ... much of it still to come due. That doesn't count God know how many hundreds of billions in tax money that was transferred to the top 2% of the population -- today's aristocracy and ruling class -- who of course, in this age of "What's in it for me?" and "What am I entitled to?", invested it in those grand ponzi schemes called real estate ventures and mortgage-backed securities (etc.). When he left office, there was to be nothing left ... hence nothing Barack Obama or Democrats could do to "fix" the problem.
Only one thing changed.
Democrats been watching the Masters of Deceit and Deficit Spending for over thirty years. They know how to play the game. So they have upped the anti. Instead of pulling a Jimmy Carter or a Bill Clinton and cutting back on whatever social services are still left, balancing the budget and reducing the Republican-induced deficits, they are borrowing from the Republican play-book and borrowing money. Like crazy. In a Republican administration, that would be okay (of course), because the borrowed money would be going to the rich folk. Today, though, it's going to everyone BUT the rich. It's going to create jobs. Private companies are not hiring in this country, and haven't been since 2001. So government is going to create the jobs for a while. And, since government is doing the hiring or the contracting, government now controls how the jobs are structured ... whether or not there are unions, what the minimum wage should be, how health-care and other benefits will be paid, and so on. This development, some astute Republicans are starting to notice, will hit them with a double whammy: Government will now be competing with private companies for work and jobs and income and (as Republicans have oft predicted) government will win most of that competition; workers will have income, will not have to borrow to make ends meet (reducing the credit business to the three balls above the door trade it traditionally occupies), and might actually be able to live a middle-class life without owing their souls to the company store. Meanwhile, the wealthy will be socked with higher taxes on their income ... forcing them to pay back some of the wealth with which they absconded during the Reagan-Bush years ... OR they will be forced to actually invest it in ventures that will produce more jobs -- you see, if they opt for that choice, their taxes go down. As they increase their investments, they will discover that government gradually withdraws as a competitor.
This sounds like a democratic republic, to me. There are still small numbers of wealthy people at one end (just maybe not as wealthy as before) and a similarly small number of poor people at the other (maybe not quite as poor). There are lots and lots of people in the middle, sort of like there were through the sixties and early seventies. Businesses will be relatively small and local. Larger, interstate companies will be incorporated under tight regulations and control, because they exist to serve the people: that is, to provide the goods and services that a well-regulated society requires. People who invest in those companies will make handsome profits by following the rules, exercising wise management strategies, and providing valuable and well-produced goods and services. Profit, of course, remains a goal ... but so does the intrinsic value of making good, reliable, useful merchandise that people value. Government and business will be separate, by the way ... much as church and state are now separate (and for many of the same reasons). When we get to this point, there will no longer be a need for a massive central government ... real power actually will be exercised locally and the national government will merely monitor and regulate commerce, secure the borders, guarantee our security, and protect/defend the Constitution.
But we temporarily need a strong central government to get us there. And here's the rub. Democrats are just as susceptible to greed and avarice and control by the ruling classes as are Republicans ... they just express their subservience in slightly different ways. They will, for example, possibly try to find a way to make sure that all the executives at all the major Wall Street financial institutions actually recoup their losses. They could, in fact, merge so thoroughly and completely with the financial institutions as to create a solid corporate state ... one blending the worst elements of both socialism and capitalism into a single tyrannical governing structure. Here is the golden opportunity for the Republican Party. Long the champion of Big Business (hidden behind the phony-baloney theories of "trickle-down" wealth to the masses and "supply-side" economics) ... now is a golden opportunity to return to the actual practices of Lincoln and become the true champions of the common man; but only by adopting and promoting policies that will (1) break up and tightly regulate the big corporations (if they're too big to fail, they're too big to save), (2) defend the right of individual workers to organize unions and collectively bargain for better working conditions and possibly co-management rights, (3) reform the electoral process (eliminate the electoral college, for example, reapportion Congressional districts in a more balanced way, take special interests out of elections, etc.), (4) terminate the Federal Reserve ... and the like.
This is where Barack Obama wants to go ... but conditions left him by the departing President, not to mention current Republican resistance ... might make it impossible. If he withstands that resistance and his policies actually succeed in slowing down and even reversing this recession, the Republican Party is a goner. If Republicans get there first, however, they might actually salvage the Party.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
shays wrote '... (1) break up and tightly regulate the big corporations (if they're too big to fail, they're too big to save), (2) defend the right of individual workers to organize unions and collectively bargain for better working conditions and possibly co-management rights, (3) reform the electoral process (eliminate the electoral college, for example, reapportion Congressional districts in a more balanced way, take special interests out of elections, etc.), (4) terminate the Federal Reserve ...'
Good God, man, you're starting to sound like Ron Paul. And didn't you give me a ration of crop in the primaries when I kept suggesting we support him? And don't you dare try to tie me to Bush - that's your demon. I've been assailing Democrans and Republicats since before the primaries. And I've staged my protest against offshoring American jobs - http://www.programmersguild.org/bofa_protest/index.html
There are two huge herds out there - sheeple and Obamabots, who have been set on a course of self destruction. The Tea Party is a start at turning the herds away from the advancing cliff, so although it doesn't match your whine of '... it must be perfect to work right ...', if it works at all, it's a start.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Ron Paul was my second choice in the primaries (and Obama was not the first) ... much of what Dr. Paul says is spot on but, as you have undoubtedly figured out, I am far more socially progressive than is he. Movements cannot be based on charade or fantasy ... there undoubtedly is a bit of myth-making as movements mature (thank you, Joseph Campbell), but you cannot start off with lies and deception. People do not like being fooled, and as a wise mentor from my days as an educational reformer used to remind us, have an infinite capacity for getting even. Get the details correct ... the truth is a powerful weapon. I mean, not every rich person is a part of the military-industrial-pharma-financial complex ... but by far the greatest number of people who are hurt by it, and who are more likely to mail teabags to Congress, earn less than $2,000,000 a year. You are not going to change the power structure of this country and build a mass movement against it by soft-pedaling on the inherent "goodness" or the "right" of the corporate elite to accumulate all of the wealth that we create. As Jimi used to say, "and so castles made of sand, melts to the sea, eventually."
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
As I have often written on these boards before, most of the really radical right wingnuts here are really a small, a very small group of paranoid people who love to use these boards as therapy for their confused state of mind. I really love it when this L fringe goes all out and tries to foment open rebellion by posting so many outright lies it makes one's head swim with the audacity of it all. The unfortunate reality regarding these kinds of rabble rousers is every once and a while they succeed and we wind up with crazy King George or crazy George Bush or worse Addi Amin. I don't know if the summer Redstone inspired Tea parties are real or just another of many figments of the only real American here or if the L fringe actually has manifested another kind of Swift Boat paranoids to stir up trouble with.
In any event thank you for taking them on one entry at a time. We need at least one sane voice among all of these entries being made by CinClayton and all of his other pseudo names like Real America and Captain America. Interesting how they keep using similar handles with the name America in them or the name of a local community. You would think that they had studied at the knee of Goebbels or Karl Rove...oh wait they did.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Thanks for the kudos ... but you should know, I only practice on these folks in preparation for the real dialogue I have with people who actually make decisions. It keeps me sharp and on my toes. I do not pretend to transform any of them, or to think I might ever receive a "thank you" or a "I didn't know that". Clearly, they don't know much of anything, and certainly can't be challenged to look too far from home for actual information.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
My ego isn't as big as shays.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Ego has nothing to do with going beyond your comfort zone and challenging yourself to examine real sources, rather than playing at intellectualism and pretending that a blog-site is authoritative.
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363
<Ego has nothing to do with going beyond your comfort zone and challenging yourself to examine real sources, rather than playing at intellectualism and pretending that a blog-site is authoritative.>
So why don't you do it? When are you going to challenge the central planning/big government knows what's best for you attitude?
Tell us why businesses do not want to operate in or leave states like New York, New Jersey and California where big government activism rules, taxes/regulations are high and spending is out of control? Or how about the "success" of gun control laws (bans) in Chicago and Washington DC championed/defended by Obama and the left wing/Democratic Party to stop violence? How about the rationing, lower quality of care and incentives created to leave the medical profession in countries where the government has taken over the health care system? Tell us about the "success" of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs to fight poverty by getting people on welfare and providing incentives to keep them there (with many Democrats still arguing against reforms passed in 1996).
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I have challenged "central planning" and "big government" since I was old enough to understand (or at least think I understood) what was going on. I am not a passive American citizen ... and as you may have noticed, I have strong opinions about quite a few issues of current concern. I began such protests against a Democratic President, and have participated in (and sometimes organized) protests during every single administration since LBJ, with the exception of the current one. I walk the talk.
Businesses leave states like New York and California because we, sheople of the United States, have allowed businesses to become our lords and masters. They leave because profit is more important to them than the people they serve. They have forgotten that people and community come first, and that business exists to serve the needs of the community. A well-run business will make a profit. It may not be a large profit ... but it will be profitable. Most businesses that are local go out of business for reasons other than governmental interference. You are talking about corporations, and I think they have grown too mighty for their shoes. If we would simply enforce the Sherman Antitrust Act, most of them would return to being small, local businesses. That would in turn serve to create a self-sustaining economy that operates within its means. We should also immediately remove the concept of "personage" that surrounds corporations, deny them 1st and 14th amendment rights, and force them out of politics. If a company refuses to pay its taxes, or refuses to clean up the environment it has despoiled ... regardless of the reasons it may have for doing so ... it should have its license revoked.
Think of how many laws and restrictions currently on the books would go away (automatically reducing the size, scope and influence of government in the process) if corporations WILLINGLY played fair, didn't try to cut corners to save (or make) money, didn't put poisons in their products (or in the air, water, and soil surrounding them), treated their employees with respect and provided them with safe working conditions and a living wage, and a whole slew of other transgressions that have grown out of OUR willingness to let them become our new rulers!
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 246
Wow, I have a whole new understanding of just how diametrically opposed our views really are. Corporations are not for the benefit of the community, they are for the benefit of the owners, shareholders, and investors. That being said, their very existence and financial success directly and indirectly benefit the community around them. Businesses leave New York and California because the cost of doing business in these states exceeds the benefit gained by the location.
I will offer an interesting case in point. Sun Microsystems was looking for a means to remain competitive in the server market. Quite frankly, the cost of manufacture in Fremont and Milpitas was draining away the ability of the company to continue to invest in research and development, but Scott McNealy did not want to leave the state that had fostered and supported so much innovation and success. However, it was found that Sun could relocate the US manufacturing facility to Grant's Pass, maintain the same salary level for those who moved with it, provide the same salary level to new employees, double the size of the manufacturing floorspace, and reduce transportation costs while saving almost 25% of the existing manufacturing costs. Failure to move would have meant that Sun would not have been able to invest in R&D and would have hastened the company's demise. As it was, California lost 1200 jobs and almost a million dollars a year in direct tax revenue, and who knows how much in indirect tax revenue. Oregon gained 2000 jobs and over a million dollars a year in direct tax revenue. And Sun was able to continue to innovate for a few more years before new management determined that purchasing new technologies was more efficient that developing them. Had Scott not executed the move, over 50,000 employees world wide might have lost their jobs and the investors might have lost over two billion dollars in assets.
My point here is that what is good for Sun is good for the community. If California had a less regressive corporate tax structure, meaningful Workmans Compensation reform, and a more corporate friendly environment, Sun would have stayed and those jobs would have stayed. If Sun did not relocate the manufacturing facility, about 15,000 people would likely have lost their jobs instead of the 1200 who did (many actually moved with the job)
The only point of your post that I agree with is the part of actually enforcing the Sherman Anti-Trust act. By doing so, competition, not government, would check prices and innovation would be rewarded. If all companies are legislated to remain small, then the economy will die as there will be no real competition and no real reward for innovation. We need strong, competitive, companies as well as small local companies if we are to thrive economically. We also need to stop punishing the successful for their success, either with vilification for political purposes or with oppressive taxation. We need to rebuild/return to an open market economy and not try to govern the economy.
Well, in truth, I also agree with getting corporations out of politics by prohibiting corporations from contributing or supporting and political candidate, campaign, PAC, or lobbyist group. Of course, we should also remove the limit placed on individual citizens and require complete public disclosure of all donations.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
It looks as if our areas of agreement are broader than alluded to in your opening statement. And, to be frank, I think there is something horribly wrong ... economically, politically, socially, and spiritually ... in a nation that is dependent upon the material success of a monstrous, undemocratic global corporation. They used to say "What's good for G.M. is good for America" ... and look where that took us.
Before blowing the socks off your Sun story (by telling what Paul Harvey used to call "the rest of the story"), let me provide a brief refresher course on corporate history in the U.S. This particular topic about the "tea bag" protests began as a protest ... by me ... against the Orwellian rebranding of the Boston Tea Party for patently narrow political propaganda purposes. The Boston Tea Party was a protest against political favoritism given to one of the first transnational corporations by a political system intricately entwined with that corporation (and its global interests) through direct conflict of interest and possible corruption. Specifically, the various taxes imposed by Parliament on the importation of specific goods into the American Colonies (including tea) ... designed to help defray the cost of the French-Indian War (as it was called in the Colonies, or the Seven-Years War as it was called elsewhere, and separate topic in its own right) ... was lifted for the British East India Company. The purpose for this favorable tax break was to make it possible for BEIC to undersell other tea importers, who still had to pay the tax. Many of the colonial merchants who participated in the Tea Party were importers of tea, and they knew that the favorable tax break would provide the opportunity for BEIC to establish a monopoly on the sale of tea, simultaneously driving them out of business.
That is why I objected so strongly to the propagandists and corporate spokespersons at Fox News using the Tea Party symbolism as a metaphor to protest a tax increase being proposed for the wealthiest 2% of Americans.
But I would also point out, in the context of your comments, that the strong anti-corporate sentiments of the colonists ... as expressed in the Boston Tea Party ... carried over into the formative decades of the new Republic. The colonists feared the power of unregulated business and the power of unchecked interference in politics as much as they feared the rise of a new despot or the emergence of royalty or a noble class. Rules of incorporation were therefore extremely strict, corporations had to clearly describe the public need or community service that their existence provided, terms of incorporation were limited in time (25-50 years, maximum),corporations were not heritable, corporations could only make the one thing or provide the one service for which they were incorporated (and had to incorporate as a different business to do different things), an incorporated business could not own another corporations or enter into partnership with another corporation, incorporated businesses were forbidden from participation in politics or the political process, they had no rights as "individuals" because they were artificial entities and everyone knew it, and other even more stringent criteria. Licensing and regulation of corporations was left up to the states, but the charters and constitutions of most states were very similar in regard to incorporation ... one of the primary duties of each of the Secretaries of States was to oversee licensing, regulation, and reports made by each business incorporated within the state.
We have strayed far from those initial, strict-constructivist attitudes about corporations. Corporations have become our new kings. What's good for Sun Microsystems, however, is NOT necessarily good for America. In fact, the collapse of our financial sector (and the not so apparent collapse of our manufacturing sector) is ample proof that this is not the case ... what is good for Big Business (i.e., the old-fashioned, Gilded Age term used for things that were much smaller and significantly less powerful than the transnational entities "too big to fail" that plague the landscape today), is good for the major investors in Big Business and the people at the top of the corporate hierarchy. Everyone else is at their mercy. And when they fail, they are so powerful that they continue to provide benefits for their big investors and higher-ups in the hierarchy, while everyone else covers their losses and pays for their mistakes.
The story you tell about Sun is only a part of the story. Long before it chose to relocate to Hillsboro (not Grants Pass, as you mistakingly pointed out), it had created lots of financial turmoil and dislocation ... suffering, in large part, from the hubris of global status, overextension, and whatever swollen pride comes from assuming the position of a Colossus straddling the globe. The dot.com bubble put most of that on view for the discerning to observe. While much of its dramatic growth in profit, share-price, and revenue was legitimate (there was a genuine demand for its web-servers and software), a good part of it was artificial. Venture capitalism, hedge-funding, and expensive startups let to expansion in expectation of business that never materialized. One of the primary components of the dot.com bubble-burst was the fact the share prices increased to levels that even top executives had a hard time explaining. But, expand it did ... before the bubble burst in 2001. Sales at Sun plummeted. Online businesses failed and assets were auctioned off and hardware prices fell dramatically. There were waves of declining revenue, rounds of layoffs, executive dismissals, and restructuring efforts. By 2002, share price had dropped from over $100 to $10 a share. It was in this climate that Sun closed its California facilities and centralized all manufacturing in Hillsboro. It moved its entire staff to Oregon in 2006. It formed partnerships with other struggling companies and business rebounded after that. For a while. But in 2008, it began another nosedive, and it's stock once again is down in the gutter (about 80% of earlier value). It was big news here in Oregon when in November of last year, Sun announced it was laying off about 18% of its workforce. And, most recently in the news are announced plans for Sun to merge with Oracle.
Now, in an environment of high speed, global electronic communications, I am not sure that a state-licensed high-tech company makes any sense. This is why I left room in my last post for businesses to be incorporated nationally. I would guess if we sat at a table and talked it through, we could find other businesses for which this case is also true. But in the larger picture, we have to end the mind-set that allows businesses to become "too large to fail". We all would be better off if production (and consumption) was local, if purchases (and consumption) were based primarily on need and not wants (especially artificial wants created by mind-numbing and mind-altering advertisement), and if terms of exchange returned to a cash basis as much as possible (with credit extended for short-terms only, credit cards used as they were used initially, and longer-term credit for big-cost items not be subjected to usurious interest rates and ridiculous fees and payments designed only to exploit and rip-off). Clearly, there would still be interstate and international commerce ... but as populations soar and resources diminish, it is increasingly imperative that we learn to once again live within our means and not go chasing after lifestyles that are not self-sustaining and that are based upon exploiting people and resources in distant places over which we have no control (and which we shouldn't HAVE to control in order to make them sustainable).
A simple metaphor covers most of it ... we need to learn to eat what is in season locally, and not demand fresh tomatoes at all times of the year.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
I met Scott McNealy when Sun Microsystems was still headquartered in Milpitas near to the garbage dump. They used to place beer kegs on the corners of their campus on Friday afternoon. The dining hall provided free meals for he employees and all of the coffee rooms/lunch rooms had refrigerators that were kept well stocked with various cold drinks of all sorts. Scott was really enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame which he stretched into several years. Once the year that AT&T provided Sun with several hundred million dollars Robert Allen hosted businesses in a luxury tent at the AT&T (Bing Crosby) Open in Monterrey. At the main banquet Scott's name plate had been placed next to Bob Allen's place at the head table. Scott moved it to another table. When the organizer advised him that he was requested at Bob Allen's table Scott told him that when he dined, he dined with friends of his choosing. I also had the pleasure of seeing him have a tantrum over the type of phone his staff selected for him when AT&T installed a new system for Sun in the late eighties. He tossed the phone across the room and shouted at them to get him a different one. Scott once told some analysts who had asked him what his goals were for the company that he did not believe in setting goals because they were too limiting and that people might slack off if the goals were set too low.
When AT&T tried to start its ill fated computer business one of the reasons they failed is they refused to pay Berkeley for the software development they had put into the Unix operating system after AT&T gave them the license for it in the seventies. AT&T thought that Berkeley should just give them the development they did in return for the favors AT&T had done for the university in the way of free software and other contracts. Scott and Sun were smart enough to buy that software from the University this saving themselves millions of dollars in development costs for such things as print drivers and other utilities and security software. The result of this is that the AT&T Unix PC and System 20 were more or less still born since there were very few applications available for them while Sun was able to hit the ground running with their systems.
Another famous Silicon Valley name was involved in the AT&T drama as well. Steven Jobs went to the AT&T (American Bell) headquarters in Morristown New Jersey and had Apple Pcs placed on every executive's desk in the building. At that time Apple had the Bell Lab's personnel in their pocket since almost all of the software engineers were using Apple PCs. Steven thought that he could convince AT&T to help Apple stand up against Microsoft and IBM in the PC marketplace. Unfortunately for them AT&T decided to enter the market with a mach9ine manufactured by Olympia out of Italy using the Microsoft operating system. They ordered so many machines from Olympia that they ran out of warehouse space to store them due to the slow pace of sales. Ships were anchored off shore full of AT&T PCs until they found storage space for all of them.
It comes as no surprise to me that both Sun and AT&T finally failed in business, one because they were too arrogant due to their size and the other because they were too arrogant probably due to their ego.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Unregulated capitalism is inherently carcinogenic. No matter how good the original product, no matter how clever the business plan, no matter how innovative the designer and/or dreamer who starts things off, over time, growth and expansion (like a Cell Gone Wild) veers wildly out of control and becomes self-destructive. Centralization, consolidation and control are the end products ... you win, and own everything else, or get gobbled up by the competition. It used to be that companies simply acquired other companies, recognizing their value and continuing investment to produce a good and worthwhile product or service. But today, investment itself is the value ... and things are bought and sold not for their inherent value, but because the demand (or lack thereof) drives the value artificially. People do not invest in GM because GM makes a worthwhile product that lots of people are going to purchase and cherish for the rest of their lives ... they invest in GM in the hope that its stock value will increase over the short run and they will be able to sell it off for a gain. Who cares if the product is a lemon, sucks gas, and is designed to self-destruct within three years?
Our business model and so-called acumen is no better than a dead fish, and consumers (i.e., the majority of Americans) are left holding the carcass but still paying off the fish monger who sold it to them in the first place. Until we rein-in the corporatists, the hedge-fund operators, the gamblers and the financial wizards of Wall Street and Big Bank, we are no better than serfs in vassalage to the Master of Money.
The story of Sun and the story of AT&T has been told over and over again, and it will continue to be told, until we remember that capitalism ONLY works when it has rules, when the rules are fair and clearly spelled out, and when someone (usually government) administers those rules without showing favoritism.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
Your comments are correct, especially for the view from ten thousand feet as usual. I like to try and put a face on the events and include examples of the specific temperments and bad business decisions that ruin companies. Robert Allen made the covers of Time, Business Week and Newsweek when he launched the new AT&T credit card called the Universal Card. I can still hear in my mind's eye the shout from the President of the Bank Of America (they were headquartered in California at the time) "I will not buy any services from a competitor." That ill fated foray into customer's lines of businmess cost AT&T far more in lost customer revenue than they could ever make up with credit card revenue. I estimate the trade off at one or two billion a year in credit card vbusiness versus three to seven billion dollars of communications network and equipment revenue lost. But he was called a genius and received a great big bonus. I believe that most big businesses fail because they forget what they are in the business of providing and because they sart hiring either marketing or financial people from outside the business to run the company. I know for sure that is what destroyed AT&T.
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363
<You ... and your so-called "patriotic" type ... sat by and watched it all happening, cheering from the sidelines while howling for the heads of people like myself who dared suggest that maybe something was rotten on Pennsylvania Avenue. You were either a complicit participant or a witless fool (that's for you to know in this magical world of assumed identities and instant authority). The goal, most undoubtedly, of George W Bush and Dick "Darth Vader" Cheney was to totally bankrupt government, fulfilling Grover Norquist's proposal that it be made so small it could be drowned in the bathtub; to break it ... totally and irreparably ... so they could stand alongside the statue of Ronald Reagan in the Republican Pantheon of Democracy Busters.>
Let me guess. You and Obama are the real "patriots" by demanding exactly the opposite? Grow the government (in a nation founded on the principles of limited government) so the left wing can "save the world", "right all the wrongs", etc. - provide "universal" retirement, free health care, guaranteed "living wages", mortgage bailouts, more benefits for illegals, undo welfare reforms, etc. so that everyone has an incentive to become dependent on government (and vote Democrat).
All this by getting fewer and fewer of the people paying income taxes so they have no stake whatsoever in controlling costs and/or tax rates. Anyone who dares any type of reform or spending discipline wil be met with the usual attacks - they will starve old people and children or they "don't care" about the poor.
The "subversives" or "rebels" are those who would object to the tax bite or that bigger portions of their earnings were being used to subsidize everyone else's poor planning, bad decision making and inefficient government bureaucracies. I bet you'll be cheering all the way as those evil self reliant "rich" people get what punishment you think they deserve.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Okay, as of right now, only people challenged with an understanding of American history (substituting, as they do, cotton-candy fluff of distorted symbols and misrepresented fact) think that mailing a tea bag to Congress means anything more than saying "I support tax breaks for the ruling class that created this mess and am opposed to providing tax cuts to 95% of the population". We need to help those people understand that their anger at Congress is misdirected ... oh, Congress is in the hands of the corporate elite, all right, and we need to transform Congress as quickly as possible so we can get it to represent we, the people instead. No, we need to help folks see alternatives to this on-going and discredited squawking about reducing the taxes of the wealthy, and to focus instead on some real proposals that will restore control of government to US ... the common folk.
Here's a few things to think about before offering some ideas:
• Who seems to have benefited the most, so far, from things done to "bail us out"? Who seems to have been the happiest with Tim Geithner's proposals to "save the banking industry"? ... my answer: Wall Street.
• It is very clear that the New World Order of unregulated financial wizards is a man-made disaster. Rescuing it is not the solution: it simply means they come back to beat us to death at some future date. The problems began when hard-earned lessons from the Great Depression were forgotten (some because of senility, some because of wishful thinking, some because of greed and stars in the eyes, and some because of willful and conscious effort), and we abandoned the rules and regulatory agencies that were put in place to control wholesale speculation. Any effort to reform that system should aim to ensure the banking and financial system serves society and the economy, not the other way around. Anything done to rescue and restore the old gets in the way of that goal.
• If Wall Street gets its way, the "reforms" currently being considered might further consolidate power and ratify a horrifying corporate state -- a grotesque hybrid of the worst aspects of socialism and capitalism. Geithner's plan will create a "risk regulator" -- presumably the Federal Reserve (a system that must be abandoned, as I have explained before) -- to oversee the largest banks that are "too big to fail". With its inherent tendency toward monopoly, capitalism would gain the means to monopolize democracy.
• What most of us recognize in our hearts ... even though coming from different political philosophies and differing political Parties ... is that what we most need is DECENTRALIZED and deconcentrated power; we need to liberate individuals and small enterprises -- including their workers, middle managers, and small investors -- to help shape the country's future by sharing their different and valuable perspectives. We do not need CEOs telling us what is important, and we do not need their political representatives taking our voices away from us.
Here are some things to consider:
• Euthanasia for insolvent banks. Transferring their losses and bad management to the public will not restore a cent; handing out money and leaving the guys who caused the mess in charge is nutty and morally wrong, and people EVERYWHERE understand this. Only politicians in Washington seem to not know this. The government needs to temporarily take control of the system to supervise a just clean-up of the mess -- call it "nationalization" or call it "receivership": the banks need to be restructured, their accounts settled, their management shown the door, new people put in charge, the rules rewritten, and new investors given a chance to start afresh.
• The Federal Reserve must go, or at least be transformed and stripped of its power that makes it this huge antidemocratic island of power within government. Like the banks, it needs to be restructured so it is accountable to the Congress and to the President. Call it a central bank, call it what you want; it must no longer be in the hands of the Big Time Bankers of the board of directors at the 12 regional banks (remember, Geithner just came from one of those banks).
• The Fed must be stripped of its regulatory powers, and should conduct and generate monetary policy, only. The Treasury (maybe a new division within it, or a brand new, self-standing agency) must handle financial regulatory powers and must also be armed with very very strong antitrust laws to enforce. There can be no such thing as something "to big to fail" (though it could be "too big to save").
• The federal law against usury must be restored. This will help end predatory lending, competitive lending, and the vicious cycle of unsecured credit that has helped bring us to where we are. Maximum interest rates, under 10%, must be established and regulated. Credit must be secured. Unsecured credit might exist, and borrowers might be able to carry small balances, but the entire Reagan-era invention of "minimum payments" must be terminated. No fines for those who violate the law ... they simply lose government protection and subsidies (which would force them out of business).
• Strengthen local banks and the not-for profit credit unions and cooperative banks. Remember that the states can create their own banks and essentially lend themselves money at interest rates they dictate (like the North Dakota State Bank). Restore the amount of assets a bank must have in relation to how much it can lend. Separate the roles of commercial and investment banks, as they have been since the Great Depression (until Phil Gramm erased the rules).
This will be a good start. We must not be stampeded into accepting Wall Street's solutions!
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Map of Tea Parties
This article by Michele Malkin contains a map of upcoming Tea Parties. I noted a number of useful planning items on the site if you want to start your own party as well.
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/04/01/share-it-the-tea-party-google-map/
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Again ... sources: one must be very leary of just how progressive and "inclusive" these Tea Parties are when they are being organized an promoted by the likes of Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, and Glen Beck (good Tories all, in a different time period).
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
Oops! You can't map something that does not exist.
I'll Keep My Intellect And Ignore
Ignorance
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
shays wrote '... one must be very leary of just how progressive and "inclusive" these Tea Parties are ...', followed by the classic tactic of name calling due to lack of reasonable argument.
If 'progressive' and 'inclusive' means people who haven't figured out that a year or two of tax reduction by a few hundred dollars doesn't balance out the thousands they will have to pay over time for Obama's stimulus plan, then that explains why tea parties are planned from one end of the country to the other.
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/04/01/share-it-the-tea-party-google-map/
And did you catch the recent plea by AIG this morning that they need still MORE money?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20799.html
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I have already PRESENTED the reasonable argument associating Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Michelle Malkin with Tory policies!!! By advocating a cut in the tax rate charged to the wealthy and the corporations they run, they make the same argument King George and Parliament made to protect the health of the British East India Company. By supporting THAT tax cut, they also oppose cutting the taxes paid by 95% of all other Americans ... another basic Tory policy. It seems that the actual Patriots ... you know, the folks who called themselves Minutemen (not the righties who have co-opted that name for themselves, today) or Sons of Liberty ... supported representation and the democratic process of selecting the people to serve in their government. Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Michelle Malkin seem to oppose that value, as well -- we just had an election in which Barack Obama promised to restore taxes on wealthiest Americans to the same level they were in 2000, and to cut taxes on everyone earning less than $250,000 a year. The People (53%) agreed that they liked that idea, and now, less than 70 days after taking office, the Tea Partiers want to try to reassert their losing demagoguery on the rest of us.
We currently have $1.5 trillion A YEAR in deficits brought to us by policies that included tax cuts for the wealthy and special privileges to the corporate elite. Tax increases on those who brought us economic catastrophe WHILE THEY PROFITED for eight years will help cut that deficit to $600 billion a year for the next four years. It's called payback ... when you make a mess of someone's house, you pay to have it fixed. In my opinion, Barack Obama has not gone far enough. Every executive at a financial institution that is in trouble right now should be forced to forfeit everything they have earned (or bought with their earnings) over the past eight years to the US Treasury. We cannot reclaim the money from the wealthy that they were not taxed, because they were just obeying the law ... but we can start now.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
when wages are going down and prices are going up for the things that most americans spend the most money on, like healthcare and housing and gas and food and water and energy. And jobs are vanishing right and left as Obama's rich boy network outsources them to foreign lands so they keep up profits. And meanwhile he wants to import more thirld worlders to keep taking jobs away from Americans, why is that? How does losing your job, or being wage deflated, while being forced to pay higher prices for everything you need, equate to a tax cut, no matter who you are or how much income you earn?
Can you explain why Obama supports the idea of bailing out the rich he proposes to tax to the tune of trillions of dollars? All that bailout money went to investment bankers, bondholders, rich people. AIG/Goldman connection, know about it? Think the average middle class American benefits from all this bailout money? Hell no, its just a big bill to pay.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Barack Obama has been in office for 80 days. The phenomena you describe, below, are phenomena he has inherited and is attempting to deal with. To wit:
when wages are going down and prices are going up
Inflation has been at a pretty steady 3-4% for the past decade, despite efforts to manipulate the "free market" by Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke and claims by the Bush Administration that the fundamentals of the economy are strong; wages have been in decline since 2001
"for the things that most americans spend the most money on, like healthcare and housing and gas and food and water and energy
All of these goods and services are produced or provided by industries that have either been deregulated or privatized since 1980 ... the promise made by deregulation and privatization was that doing so would increase competition and lower prices. Bull!
Barack Obama is going to reduce the cost of healthcare for most Americans. The cost of housing has taken a deep hit due to unfettered speculation and irresponsible financing created by Republican legislation, and Republicans continue to resist allowing people to have the same right to appear before a bankruptcy court to refinance their mortgages that some wealthy bozo has for his second or third home. The price of gasoline will continue to rise and fall as oil companies manipulate the market, though the overall trend will be upward because petroleum is a nonrenewable resource and it is disappearing ... Jimmy Carter put us on a path to make us totally independent of foreign oil by 1999 or 2000 and initiated efforts to develop alternative sources of energy that Ronald Reagan rolled back and put on hold for THIRTY YEARS! Food has ceased being a local (and locally controlled) enterprise because of conservative economic policies and neo-liberal trade agreements ... the produce I grow myself or buy locally at the farmer's market or cooperative is almost HALF the price that I pay in corporate grocery chains and suggests exactly where we might be today had we not adopted a philosophy that promoted centralization of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands. Water will become more and more scarce if allowed to become dirtier and dirtier through lenient environmental protections and enforcement, if its delivery continues to be privatized, and if efforts are not adopted to limit population growth. Energy was addressed, above ... but additionally, the longer we put off making major, public investments in new forms of energy and in energy production, the more expensive it will grow. I would say, in response to this particular section of your tirade, you would be well-advised to accept the things Barack Obama is doing.
And jobs are vanishing right and left as Obama's rich boy network outsources them to foreign lands so they keep up profits.
I am not sure how in 80 days Barack Obama could have caused job losses due to outsourcing, a phenomena begun under Bush I, increased after NAFTA passed under Clinton, and then accelerated to warp speed under Bush II. Obama may have connection to "rich boy network", but outsourcing is a product of previous administrations.
And meanwhile he wants to import more thirld worlders to keep taking jobs away from Americans, why is that?
This claim you are going to have to document. From where I stand, the number of illegal immigrants in this country has actually DECLINED in the last 80 days. Bush II made fine noises about controlling illegal immigration, but the number under his watch almost doubled. Of course, we DO have labor and immigration laws on the books to prohibit (or at least limit) the hiring of undocumented workers ... but the laws have not been enforced since Reagan, and when they are enforced, they have no teeth! Again, you are barking up the wrong tree.
How does losing your job, or being wage deflated, while being forced to pay higher prices for everything you need, equate to a tax cut, no matter who you are or how much income you earn?
First off, a tax cut is a tax cut, and is independent of any expenses that you have. I'll explain it to you, since you seem a little dense on this topic (we'll use rounded numbers). Let's say my wife and I (pensioners, both) earned $36,000 last year. Let's say our income tax on that amount totaled $3117 and we paid $6000 for food. So now here comes the tax cut year. We still make $36,000, I still pay $6000 for food (or, adjusting for inflation, maybe I pay $6180 for food), but we receive a $1000 tax credit (reduced by Republicans from the originally proposed $2400 credit) and therefore only pay $2117 in income tax. Sounds like a tax cut to me!!!!!!
Now, to your specifics. You are going to have to tell me just how many Americans earning more than $250K a year have lost their jobs. You are also going to have to tell me how a $250K salary represents wage "deflation", especially in relation to assembly-line workers and people employed in small business who really are suffering wage deflation (and benefit deflation). We are all paying higher prices, that is true ... but that particular phenomena exists apart from income tax (see above).
In short, every one of your claims is bogus. Just where are you obtaining this false information that is making you so angry? As I used to counsel my seventh grade students (adolescents always have a hair trigger in regards to issues of "fairness" ... even when the facts upon which they base their outrage are shaky, at best), always check the source and the accuracy of the information you are using.
As to the other half of your message ... Can you explain why Obama supports the idea of bailing out the rich he proposes to tax to the tune of trillions of dollars? All that bailout money went to investment bankers, bondholders, rich people. AIG/Goldman connection, know about it? Think the average middle class American benefits from all this bailout money? Hell no, its just a big bill to pay ... I am just as flummoxed as are you. Wells Fargo is reporting a first quarter profit, however, which - if not derived from some magical accounting mumbo-jumbo - might suggest that the goal almost everyone wanted to accomplish of stabilizing the financial institutions might actually be working. If, after stabilization, Obama then imposes draconian regulatory and oversight measures, then I will indeed be very pleased. But so far, I don't see the draconian measures, and ... like you ... see rich fat-cat gamblers walking away with huge sums of our money and not having to pay their share of the responsibility for creating the near-devastating conditions that currently exist. But once again you are going to need to check the details of your outrage ... $700 billion of that "bailout" money was appropriated by George W Bush, and the deals permitting the bailout allowed the CEOs to structure the contracts that gave them those bonuses. Unless we drastically change the way we regulate and operate finances in this country, then I will join you in expressing my anger.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
Barack Obama will not make health care more affordable, he is going to have to pay for it just as we pay for it today. One start would be to ban freeloaders from the system but so far he has indicated he wants the freeloaders to stay. So they will use that to drive up the prices, arguing that they are going to have to cover more people (who are already being covered, under the freeloader policy of not denying healthcare to freeloaders).
So there will be no cost reductions there.
As for immigration his record and statements are on file, just go look them up. Start at numbersusa.com and read some of the action alerts. He is sponsoring H1B and will sign an amnesty bill if Congress gives him one to sign. I dont think I need to do any more proving of things that are one record, do I? Aren't his own words enough?
As for the bailout, the tally is now at 3T so if 700B was Bush, the rest must be Obama. Accounting? I don't know, not an accountant, but I would refer you to the archives of The Atlantic magazine , as they had a very precise forensic breakdown of it, published about 3-4 months ago, Id guess. In any case, the spending is out of control. Obama approved it, why?
You don't work, so your example of a tax cut isn't very helpful. Unearned income tax credits only help people who don't earn any income, and frankly, the concern is for working people. If you're retired, the goal is that you were able to save enough for your retirement to support yourself without becoming a ward of the state or dependent on your children.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Barack Obama will not make health care more affordable, he is going to have to pay for it just as we pay for it today. One start would be to ban freeloaders from the system but so far he has indicated he wants the freeloaders to stay. So they will use that to drive up the prices, arguing that they are going to have to cover more people (who are already being covered, under the freeloader policy of not denying healthcare to freeloaders).
Barack Obama will not enact health care legislation. He will indicate what he wants it to look like and will be responsible for signing or vetoing whatever legislation eventually gets passed, but you are barking up the wrong tree on this one. You also seem to possess a rather gross misunderstanding of how our government works, but I may be mistaken. You obviously are also only reading what the right-wing nay-sayers are saying proposed health-care reform is going to look like, rather than reading for yourself what actually is being proposed. There are several proposals on the table. You might check out Ron Wyden's Healthy America Act, for starters, to see how universal health care can be provided in a way that pretty much pays for itself.
And this business of letting the "freeloaders" take care of themselves is absolute nonsense. You sound like a scrooge from Dickens (which actually is consistent, since conservative Republicans seem to think that the Gilded Age and the good-old days of unregulated commerce were some sort of golden age that we ought to go back to). By making sure that the "freeloaders" (a loaded term to begin with) are insured and that someone is paying their expenses, it actually serves to drive costs DOWN! But then, your argument seems based on the assumption that for-profit health care is a good system ... which it is not. No one's health, in this day and age, should be based upon how much they can afford to pay.
As for immigration his record and statements are on file, just go look them up. Start at numbersusa.com and read some of the action alerts. He is sponsoring H1B and will sign an amnesty bill if Congress gives him one to sign. I dont think I need to do any more proving of things that are one record, do I? Aren't his own words enough?
Of course they are. His words and his record is one reason that he was elected President. And if Congress gives him an amnesty bill to sign, and he signs it, then that will be a good thing! Remember, your guy lost the election (and he, too, sponsored an amnesty bill). Amnesty means we have grown beyond our narcissistic and xenophobic desire to hunt down, punish and expel more than twelve million people and find a better way to address clearly illegal acts.
As for the bailout, the tally is now at 3T so if 700B was Bush, the rest must be Obama. Accounting? I don't know, not an accountant, but I would refer you to the archives of The Atlantic magazine , as they had a very precise forensic breakdown of it, published about 3-4 months ago, Id guess. In any case, the spending is out of control. Obama approved it, why?
You are forgetting that Hank Paulson provided almost $500 billion of bailout money for AIG and others before telling Congress in September that he needed $800 billion more. I won't go into the intricate bait-and-switch that the Republican Party played on us to get that $800 billion (knocked down to $750) without any strings attached, but that right there accounts for $1.2 trillion in bailout money approved during the Bush Administration. I know of no other bailout money that has been approved, so seriously question the $3T figure you cite (but will gladly accept a more specific reference than "some Atlantic Monthly article written 3-4 months ago"). Barack Obama's administration has had authority over $350 billion of that Congressional appropriation ... and unlike President Bush or Treasury Secretary Paulson, has attached strings to it for which the recipients are accountable.
You don't work, so your example of a tax cut isn't very helpful. Unearned income tax credits only help people who don't earn any income, and frankly, the concern is for working people. If you're retired, the goal is that you were able to save enough for your retirement to support yourself without becoming a ward of the state or dependent on your children.
My example is perfectly helpful. I was not talking about earned income tax credits (which is what I am sure you meant). I have earned the monthly check I receive from the California State Teachers Retirement System. Federal tax is withheld from my check, just like it is from any worker in the country. My income has been earned ... I paid into a trust fund throughout my career (matched by my employers) and it is from that fund that my income is drawn. The federal government and the state of Oregon treat it as earned income. As for "retirement", boy do you have a screwed up notion about it. Even the idea of "retirement" is relatively brand new (though Otto von Bismarck instituted a limited form of retirement security for ex-soldiers). During and immediately after WWII, salaries were frozen. Trade unions negotiated with business management a way to compensate workers whose income was frozen ... they simply deferred wage increases to a trust fund that could be collected upon retirement. Before that, people essentially worked until they died. In enlightened societies and nations (ours was not one of them) ... where people respect their elders ... older members of society were taken care of by their families or by the community as a whole. But until unions gave us "designated benefits" ... one of which was a retirement plan ... only very wealthy people could afford to "retire".
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363
<Barack Obama will not enact health care legislation. He will indicate what he wants it to look like and will be responsible for signing or vetoing whatever legislation eventually gets passed, but you are barking up the wrong tree on this one. You also seem to possess a rather gross misunderstanding of how our government works, but I may be mistaken. You obviously are also only reading what the right-wing nay-sayers are saying proposed health-care reform is going to look like, rather than reading for yourself what actually is being proposed. There are several proposals on the table. You might check out Ron Wyden's Healthy America Act, for starters, to see how universal health care can be provided in a way that pretty much pays for itself.>
Which tree are you barking up? We've heard politicians for years making "'modest" cost estimates about supplying medical/retirement coverage via Medicare and Social Security that are regularly revised upward.
You seem to possess a rather gross misunderstanding of how our government works - it discourages innovation, encourages dependency and does not use resources efficiently because there is no incentive to do so. Big government/central planning supporters have an incentive to keep it that way because it secures their political power base.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Let's see ... you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would say that "innovation" or "efficient use of resources" was not a hallmark of the United States between 1941 and 1980 (even if some dependency was sneaking in during the last decade of that period).
I know that my for-profit insurance provider is constantly seeking ways and means to prevent me from receiving the best medical attention I can get, and that if they can find any excuse to deny it (a pre-existing condition, for example), they will do so. I know that my taxes are higher than they need be because a good part of them goes to providing emergency and other health care to the 45 million Americans who cannot afford to purchase for-profit health insurance and are shunted off to the public systems for all of us to support. I know that I am now confronting which Part-B Medicare plan I "want" to enroll in: a Big-Government corporate-socialism enacted boondoggle passed by the Republican-controlled Congress and designed to subsidize Big Pharma (who uses a good hunk of that profit to advertise its drugs on television, further driving up the costs).
Nope ... it's time to make private, for-profit health care an add-on privilege for those who want to pay for more than the basic health plan that all of our elected representatives receive (at our expense), and to provide that basic not-for-profit system available to all Americans.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
Hmmm, let me see, eight years of government mismanagement, a war started by lies, a tax give away to the wealthy also known as welfare for the wealthy, a Bush trillion dollar bailout for AIG and the banks all of whom used it for junkets and bonuses and such. Now we have a new well educated non cocaine using , non-alcoholic President who is wrestling with the issues created by the same people who are "starting the tea bag movement" and just as they have done for the past nine years they are blaming their errors on the wrong person. sorry only Real American" and others, Obama did not create the mess your poor example of a leader created but he is capable of correcting it if he is given a chance. What you like to pretend is Obamics, your slogan for economics is in reality the consensus of the many economic advisors Conservative and liberal that President Obama has called upon to assist him in correcting the many errors of the Bush years.
As for the ludicrous, idiotic and seditious cries from those who are promoting open rebellion like the phony only Real American, well their willingness to go to armed open rebellion because they are unhappy with the legacy their prior darling Bush left them is just another example of how deluded they have become.
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
Wow! I dare anyone in this country to have complete responsibility and/or control over their own lives!
There once was a dream of home ownership for everyone. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac tried to make that dream come true by guaranteeing loans to anyone and everyone that applied. With or without jobs, documentation, stability of residence, proof of ability to pay, legal or illegal, english speaking or non-english speaking, etc... All one had to do was sign on the line and the loan and house would be theirs. This policy of course totally supplanted supply and demand economics in the housing market, which led to artificially inflated housing values, which led to the housing bubble, which eventually burst. Which was a major cause of the recession, which caused banks and other corporations to start failing, which caused the government to start bailing.
There once was a dream of affordable healthcare for everyone. Which caused Congress to pass a bill (in the 1950's) allowing corporations/businesses to deduct healthcare costs on their taxes (not individuals). Which caused corporations to purchase and provide healthcare for their employees, which caused millions of insured individuals to think that it was their employers (or government MediCaid, MediCal, MediCare) obligation to provide healthcare for them, instead of them being able to purchase healthcare on the OPEN market, which caused the cost of healthcare to rise so that individuals were priced out of the market, which caused millions of uninsured individuals.
There once was a dream of luxury retirement for all our elderly people in America. So along with Social Security, Congress passed laws allowing corporations/businesses to deduct from their taxes, the costs associated with providing retirement plans for their employees. Individuals could only deduct $2,000 a year on their taxes in the beginning and only if they didn't earn too much. Now I think it's up somewhere around $5,000. Which created a situation where individuals looked to their employer to provide retirement (instead of saving for themselves), which created large sums of money (401K's) being invested that individuals had little or no control over, which created large sums of money being lost when the recession hit, which has created hardship for millions of our retired citizens.
There once was a dream of helping and feeding all our poor people in need. So our Congress passed laws providing Welfare, Food Stamps, Section 8 Housing, etc... programs, which caused some people to abuse these programs by having child after child without being married or having a way to support these children, in order receive more handouts and stay on the programs longer (instead of having time limitations and education/training requirements tied to receiving government money). Which caused some of the children in these households to grow up thinking that living off of the government is a "way of life." Which caused some of them to have children without being married, that they couldn't afford, which caused them to apply for government handouts. Which has caused a lot of kids to grow up in one parent households on government assistance, which has caused a growing population of takers not producers.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
Gosh I wonder why jonesca100 left out the real story regarding all of the "there once was a dream" scenarios.
Look at the truth when Fanny Mae was created there was a small economic problem called The Great Depression" and tens of thousands of families found themselves living in tent cities with no way out of the poverty that had been caused by the robber barons AKA Republicans of that era. The enlightened administration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and congress created Fannie Mae in 1938 to buy mortgages from lenders that freed up capital that enabled banks to loan money to low and middle income people to buy homes. No one who understands history believes that was a bad idea. Linking the current crisis to that event is comparing apples to oranges.
The next myth in the above comment is about the creation of a tax break for corporation that provided health care for their workers. A brief glance at the history of that legislation reveals that it was a Republican response supported by the American Medical Association to stop people from demanding the same kind of medical care being provided to most of Europe and Canada via various governmental programs. Doctors did not want their monopoly over the pricing of medical care threatened by anything so radical that it provided medical care to children as an inherent right of their existence. Europe has enjoyed one hundred years of a safety net for their people in the area of health care. Today in America millions of children, poorer people and many of the recently unemployed and elderly are not covered properly by any program of health care. The issue today is not about the inappropriateness of that bad legislation, it is about the creation of a real medical program that covers everyone in America at least as well as every nation in Europe and Canada.
Then the author leaps to Social Security and various Republican sponsored scams that allowed businesses to get a tax break for various retirement programs that they really never had to fund and which they could use to try and bolster their business if needed. In other words no retirement program at all but a perk for the big contributors to their campaigns. People that George Bush/Reagan/Bush II/Cheney et al. liked to call "my kinda people." ; people who were the robber barons in the years leading up to the Great Depression and people who were the biggest contributors to the Republican Party during the past thirty years. Compounding the low threshold of research behind the above article we have the ripping off of the Social Security fund by Reagan/Bush I Clinton? and Bush II which actually has caused the current discussions regarding it. Hmm, I wonder why that never appeared in the "once there was a dream" comments. Here is another truth about Social Security, it never was created to allow people to live in luxury, it was created to allow people to live in dignity. Unbeknownst to the author of the above there is a vast difference between dignity and luxury.
Lastly we have the usual right wingnut diatribe against food stamps without any consideration of what food stamps have done that is good. Reading the above one would believe that the only reason poor people have children is to obtain food stamps. When Senator Moynihan initiated the bill his intention was to provide a safety net for children to receive proper nutrition during their formative years. There was substantial abuse of various welfare programs until the Clinton years when stiffer regulations were put in place curbing welfare benefits to slothful people who would exploit any kind of system designed to help their children. The actions of slothful people do not negate the benefits of the food stamp programs. In fact recent events prove that many more people are applying for food stamps because of the current financial stresses in the economy. If we did not have a program like this it would be much harder for many of the hard working honest Americans who find themselves out of work due to the excessive greed of various free marketers and the lack of regulation promoted by the Republicans and some Democrats.
So we can see that it really as simplistic as many of the radical right wingers would like us to believe. The issues are complex and it will take years for us to wrestle with the issues created by the latest group of greedy people in our midst. It will not be solved by decrying every reasonable and unreasonable governmental program of the past hundred years.
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
The truth according to who? When Fanny Mae was created, as you say, there was a stated condition and purpose. OK. The Depression ended a long time ago. Why do we still have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac today? Think hard. And is the purpose and the way Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been used over the years (especially the last ten years) the same as it was back in 1938. So, here we go again with government programs being put in place for a purpose and then over the years instead of reevaluating the purpose, need for them, or even eliminating some of them, we just let them go on and morph into all kinds of unrecognizable forms, being used for all kinds of unrecognizable purposes. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were used to guarantee all the "bad loans" the banks made on purpose the last ten years to make more "affordable housing." WELFARE HOUSING. And now we the people are paying for it all.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
All of the creations of men whether they are governmental, religious or private can and, given enough time, will become corrupt. That is why we know that Adam Smith was wrong because he believed that men were essentially good and we all know that all men are mostly greedy pigs. Sure there are a few people who seem to be incorruptible but I assure you they are a distinct minority. We still have these two institutions because we have woven them into the fabric of the housing industry. They are no longer providing support to assist people with minimal means to buy a home. They have been used by the commercial home building industry to encourage people to buy really big way oversized homes with very high ceilings built on questionable building sites because the builders, banks and their lobbyists asked politicians, Republican and Democratic politicians to make that happen. As the white middle class escaped the disasters they helped to create in the inner cities they fled to the suburbs and the instruments of the depression enabled them do that in grand style. I did not see anyone living in the very nice homes built in Walnut Creek or Concord or Antioch or Brentwood complaining about the "easy money loans" they were getting to build homes they will most likely no be able to heat in a few years. Not at all, in fact I saw them getting into their BMWs and SUVs and going to work as a mortgage loan officer or realtor in order to take advantage of all of that easy money.
So the "welfare housing" you are complaining about was used by the middleclass and upper class to substantially improve their standard of living. Remember the term "trading up"? It was the most popular mantra of the real estate and contracting industry of the past forty years. Well we all finally traded up to the point that we cannot pay for the homes we were so eager to trade up to.
The problem is not the existence of Fannie and Freddie, the problem is our own greed and shortsightedness in not accepting the obvious fact that we4 all wanted to live way beyond our means. Now the hens have come home to roost and we are all looking for an easy scapegoat. There are no easy answers to the problems we all created but I don't believe that we can fix them overnight and we certainly can't fix them by eliminating the current financial system.
By the way the depression did not end right away after these two institutions were created; it lasted for many more years after that and so will this financial crisis.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
It is ever so easy to generalize, but the devil is always in the details.
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act was passed along clear partisan lines in 1999 (one Democrat voted for it in the Senate, and 1 in the House). It repealed the Glass-Steagall Act (1933) that had been passed to separate different parts of the financial industry and reduce financial speculation during the Great Depression. Glass-Steagall created the FDIC (which was not repealed by Gramm-Leach-Bliley), separated banks by the nature of their function (commercial banks, investment banks), and set up a series of regulatory processes for preventing speculation and participation of financial institutions in the stock market. Gramm-Leach permitted commercial and investment banks to consolidate and/or perform the same lending functions. It also removed restrictions on banks, securities companies and insurance companies from entering the housing mortgage market. As but one relevant example, Gramm-Leach-Bliley allowed CitiBank to merge with insurance giant Traveler's Group to form CitiGroup. CitiGroup combined banking, underwriting, and insurance services. Other huge insurance and financial groups emerged following the creation of CitiGroup, and all entered the market as competitors WITH Fannie and Freddie.
As an aside, Phil Gramm also railroaded through the Commodities Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which not only deregulated the trading in energy futures (and gave rise to Enron), but also deregulated the financial institutions that had been turned loose by Gramm-Leach-Bliley ... allowing monster international financial groups to become Enrons on Steroids!
Fannie and Freddie did NOT invent the subprime lending stategies. Fannie and Freddie bought mortgages that had already gone through two or three slicings and dicings: a mortgage broker or aggressive bank makes a deal with a buyer (hey ... because the value of a house always goes up, you don't need a down payment, we can offer you really low interest rates, and we can even pretend you have a good job and the necessary income) ... sells the mortgage to a bank and collects the commission ... the bank then sells the mortgage to an investment or securities firm (which might be just a different division of the same bank, but not necessarily so) ... the security investment firm combines all the basically worthless mortgages together in bundles (worthless because it is just a matter of time before the buyer defaults on the mortgage) and conspires with a co-owned rating firm to give it really high credit risk ratings ... then the investment firm sells the bundled "assets" to insurance companies, other banks, city government, pension funds, school boards, and the like ... the Wall Street Investment firm sets up a shell company in the Cayman Islands that "buys" the mortgages so the worthless bundles go on the balance sheet of the dummy corporation ... and then, when buyers start defaulting simultaneously everywhere, the insurance companies cannot cover the policies they wrote and no one gets paid for those bundled securities.
Who is watching to prevent this wild speculation from happening? NO ONE!!!
Who owns these mortgages? ... well, indeed, Fannie and Freddie (no longer a public, government agency since the time of Lyndon Johnson, but theoretically backed by the Treasury) own about half of them. Very aggressive private corporations, like Countrywide, own the other half.
So, who are the real criminals in this speculative monster that crashed in on itself (as ALL laissez-faire businesses are bound to do)? Well, though it's easy to blame the executives at AIG, CitiBank, Merrill-Lynch, et. al. ... they most certainly were reckless and irresponsible managers hardly worth the huge sums of money they were paid for their "expertise", and they made gross miscalculations of public sympathy when they continued to reward themselves robber baron bonuses as if nothing had really changed ... to blame them is making the same mistake as blaming Lynndie England for the atrocities at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
Like the bankers, she did deplorable things. But she thought what she was doing was legal, because John Yoo issued memorandums and rulings that declared the things she did were not really "torture". The cowardly Bushies never were brave enough to test these rulings in the courts, and so they let Lynndie England and a few other soldiers take the blame. Like Lynndie, the bankers are small fish. They took stupid risks and were insanely compensated for poor management (even worse is the fact that the gross compensation packages they just received that has everyone so angry were actually worked out last September and October by the Bushies ... a fact ignored today by all the faux populists and their staged "outrage").
Nope, the real criminals are Ronald Reagan, Grover Norquist, Phil AND Wendy Gramm, Tom DeLay and ... yes ... Bill Clinton. Just like it is wrong to pursue policies based on the belief that you can bomb people into democracy and torture them into being on our side, so is it wrong to think that we can play the game of business and investment without rules. Ever since Ronald Reagan rolled back the top marginal income tax rates on millionaires and billionaires from 74% to 28%, our nation has been disastrously and more deeply in debt ... sliding deeper each and every year (even Clinton's budget "surpluses" were not much more than accounting trickery, using the old Reagan trick of borrowing from the Social Security Trust Fund to make things smell rosy). David Stockman (Director of Reagan's Office of Budget and Management) bragged that the goal of Republicans was to rack up such a huge federal deficit that Democrats would never be able to afford to push the "socialist" programs that most Americans wanted ... especially a stable Social Security System and a single-payer health care system. He called it "starving the beast". Grover Norquist suggested it would force government to become so small it could be "drowned in the bathtub". Phil Gramm passed two major pieces of legislation that removed oversight of corporations, and Bill Clinton gleefully signed all (and NAFTA) into law.
And now, here we are.
sells to bank, bank , and they didn't even buy the majority of them after 2001 ... that
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
Obviously this is an opinion board along with people presenting facts. As unusual as it seems to me; I agree with you more than I do not. That being said; you also are guilty of generalizations and interjecting your "opinion" (which is OK) into your details. You just need to acknowledge that along with your facts you are putting your "spin" on it as well (which is OK too). I read everything you wrote more than once and came to the same conclusion each time. I was right about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac fueling the "bad loans" that banks and other lending institutions were making. It doesn't matter that Mae and Mac got in the act two or three derivatives down the line, the fact was that Mae and Mac "GOT IN" and "GUARANTEED" these "bad loans." Mae and Mac were therefore a major factor in encouraging the lending institutions to go on "relaxing lending rules." This was an agenda of some people in the congress trying to make the home ownership dream possible for more people. I never said that Mae and Mac invented subprime lending strategies. Mae and Mac were however guilty of "buying them," (in whatever watered down form) which encouraged the "greedy banks, et al" to do more of them. Otherwise why did Mae and Mac "EVER" get in the act at all? This is where Congress failed yet again to walk the fine line between too much vs not enough regulation. I will digress a little to address the "greedy banks" and other predatory lenders. I agree completely about overpaid executives, real estate brokers, developers/builders, etc.. (especially when they are proven to be incompetent). That being said I don' t have much sympathy for ADULTS signing contracts without fully understanding what it is that they are signing. No one, that I am aware of, had a gun to their head when signing these contracts. I am not in favor of "BABYSITTING" adults. We have laws in this country (some good and some bad), but some of the best are in contract law. If someone is, elderly, a minor, disabled, non-english speaking, etc.. most will seek help when it comes to entering into a contract. Minors can't sign a valid contract without an adult. WHY? Because a contract is UNENFORCEABLE and can be thrown out if the judge finds that one party of the contract was not able, impaired (signed under duress) or defrauded in some way. Or the contract was illegal by some other reason. Not reading, not understanding, not taking your time, negligence, not having a lawyer, real estate broker, knowledgeable friend/relative, anyone there to help you when you sign a contract is a "CHOICE" (and not a wise one) on the part of the person signing the contract. To say after the fact, that the ADULT signing the contract, didn't fully realize that signing a contract on a "variable rate" loan meant that the payment on the house would go up at some point is "LUDICROUS." Personal responsibility is in inherent in all of contract law. It doesn't matter that in this case we are talking primarily about house loans. Loans of any kind; car, appliances, equity loans, etc... are signed by adults everyday all day. We would have to invalidate all contracts if we give people the "ignorance excuse" to get them out of otherwise "valid contracts." It is not up to the lenders to "BABYSIT ADULTS." Look at how people have gotten themselves all "messed up" with credit card debt. The banks and other lenders were not the ONLY greedy people in this equation. Sometimes people have to learn the "hard way" to take responsibility for THEIR BAD DECISIONS, take their lumps, pick themselves up and DO BETTER NEXT TIME. I also have no sympathy for the developers/builders and real estate people that made hundreds of millions on inflated housing prices caused by this whole "ponzi scheme." I hope they all saved their money for this "rainy day." If not, oh well, live and learn. The Social Security and School Systems are two prime examples of why no one should want the government running any total social program. MediCal, MediCaid, MediCare, Welfare, AFDC, Food Stamps, Section 8 and HUD are other examples of how government programs with good intentions of helping people, get started and get completely out of hand. They grow and grow and grow and no one looks at why? They just think these programs are helping the children, poor and disabled and that's a good thing. But unfortunately we always seem to throw the "baby out with the bathwater" by not providing enough oversight on these programs to prevent frauds, cheaters, and waste. We also seem to have no "exit strategy" on most of these programs. So depending on the government finances and political whims at different times, some people are left on these programs "to rot" indefinitely and some are unceremoniously kicked off these programs with no rhyme or reason. Of course you only here from the people kicked off, you never here from the people who "could be working" but choose to just "milk the system." Again, government should (in my opinion) make laws to protect honest, good, hardworking, people from criminals breaking laws. Again, Congress needs to balance reaching and over-reaching, legislating and over-legislating, protecting and over-protecting, regulation and over-regulating while trying to meet the needs of the people. Taxes were and are supposed to be levied on people for the running of the government and the services the government provides. This does include helping our children, elderly, disabled and the poor (but we need to get our able bodied poor TO WORK). We are a people with a government NOT a government with a people. Where we fall woefully short on helping our poor able bodied people in not providing them with enough resources in education and training to help them to better themselves. We need to do a better job of that to have more productive citizens. I have no idea why anyone makes a big deal about Social Security anymore. I grew up with the knowledge that Social Security would not be enough to retire on. Most people I know grew up with that knowedge. Again this is just one more program where the government is forcefully pushing a program on people (like public school, medicare, etc...) and then mismanaging the program. Why on earth would anyone think that healthcare in this country would be any better with the government mismanaging the program. The idea is to get the people that don't have access and insurance, access and insurance to healthcare. Not the other way around. I agree that something needs to be done about healthcare and that something is to take away the business deduction for healthcare and open up the free market so that individuals can purchase healthcare for a reasonable price (they can't gouge individuals, like the corporations). And yes there needs to be some government oversight on the health insurance companies by government, just like there is on auto insurance companies today. You don't see people paying $5,000 a year on average for auto insurance do you? Why? Because individuals can't afford that. It's called supply and demand economics. Smaller government, more hardworking people taking personal responsilbility for their lives, families/children, careers will get this country back to where it needs to be.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Whew ... that was a mouthful. I don't even know where to begin with in writing a response. I guess my bottom line comment would be that, in general, I agree with most of what you said but to pick out specific examples would be hard to do. So let me try a different tack. Let me focus on contract law, since that comprised a good chunk of your thinking.
The value and the enforceability of a contract comes from one place and one place only -- government. Without a government serving as the arbiter (writing the laws, enforcing the laws, judging the laws, and extracting or serving justice in regard to the law), contracts have no bearing. The currency we use to seal a deal or to conduct business transactions, too, is dependent solely upon the existence of a government. Too often we forget that business just cannot function without government.
Take it another step. When I grow my own food, when I barter or exchange a an agreed upon amount of currency for food that my neighbor grows, when I purchase my food from the local farmer's market or the corner grocery store (extend this line of reasoning to shoes, furniture, automobiles, as well as practically any service), and something turns out to be wrong or unsatisfactory with that food (or product or service) ... I usually have direct personal recourse to the source of the problem. I can attempt to deal directly with the cause of my complaint, or I can hire a local attorney and avail myself of the local judicial system to adjudicate the problem. In all cases, I can take care of myself or use the legal system (i.e., government) to protect my legal rights.
If my neighbor sells me tainted broccoli, who is at fault? Is it my fault for buying it? Or is it his fault for selling it to me? And how does this situation change if I buy more tainted broccoli from the same farmer one week later? Is the situation again different if we find out the farmer was storing his broccoli in raw sewage, which he simply rinsed off with a garden hose before showing it to me? Before I buy his broccoli, how much information should I collect ... and how far should I go to collect that information ... to make sure that he is representing himself honestly? In other words, what is the degree of mistrust that I must show before any blame for buying tainted broccoli leaves my shoulders?
So, with that in mind, how does that apply to goods or services provided by a global corporation? Am I ever absolved from carrying full responsibility for being tricked or deceived? Does none of the blame fall on the carny selling me something? Put another way (and again from a slightly different time period) ... if I buy bottled snake oil that is sold to me by a traveling salesman under the label of a cure-all for bunions, hemorrhoids, and halitosis ... am I to blame for being gullible, or am I protected from false advertising? Now put that same carny into a very expensive business suit, put him behind a desk at a well-respected bank with deposits in the hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars, remember that bankers are tough nuts and guard money like the Great White Shark, and have this guy offer you a bill of goods ... though he claims there is nothing ever that can go wrong, the full wealth of his bank protects your investment, the bank wouldn't be making an offer unless it knew it would get its money back, the housing market is SO strong that even if you do have some problems you will always be able to sell for more than you paid, and all the other stuff that wealthy-looking, dignified, well-spoken, powerful, knowledgeable, fast-talking professionals were saying ... and then tell me it was the fault of the borrower that he succumbed to the pressure.
Yes ... lots and lots of Americans sold or refinanced their homes in order to finance speculation and/or buy goods and services they otherwise could not afford. It is the nature of the human being ... a sucker born every minute is how PT Barnum explained it ... and it explains lots of otherwise inexplicable things that humans do. (Pardon the aside: For example ... a category 5 hurricane has made your hometown its bulls-eye, your hometown lies below sea level and the water kept out by dikes constructed by the notoriously inefficient Army Corps of Engineers, and you have a five-days' heads-up that it is coming; people -- volunteers and officials in uniform -- come around regularly telling you to get out. But most people, for whatever reason, refuse to get out. Just as we have had about 40-50 years' warning that the planet is warming, the ice caps and sea ice melting, and the weather patterns making violent adjustments on a daily basis -- but most of us are still in denial). How many Californians sold their homes and got top dollar, moved to Arizona or New Mexico and upgraded, then bought a second or third home to operate as a rental or as a speculative investment, only to see everything go bust? So, yes ... some individuals ARE responsible for their choices and their behaviors.
Have you seen the recent reports that indicate the majority of subprime loans were offered to people who qualified for a fixed loan at prime rates (but for a home of lesser value)? Were they being greedy? Or were they being misled?
I do not have the same faith or belief in the New Age Religion of Market-based forces that you do. At a local level, certainly. In small business, of course. But not in monopolies or the near-monopolies that tend to dominate the consumer market-place, or whom contract with government for global-sized services or products. We must break up ALL corporations and all financial institutions. All must be incorporated to do business within a single state, where they are tightly regulated and controlled to make sure that they serve the basic public good for which they were incorporated. If they wish to do business in multiple states, then they must incorporate in each state where they do business, and abide by the rules of that state. If the rules are different ... so be it; business exists to serve people, not the other way around. None can be allowed to participate in politics. Individuals from a business (or in it) are free to exercise their individual rights to free speech; but representatives of the business are not. And businesses cannot contribute to political campaigns.
For-profit health care must become an oxymoron. We do not have to make the transition from our current obscene and incredibly unfair system to a not-for-profit system in one fell swoop ... but make it we must. If bureaucrats are going to make decisions regarding my health care, I want them to make that decision based upon issues related to health, not to someone's bottom-line or profit margin. A good starting point is Ron Wyden's Healthy America Act. Check it out.
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
I agree that government enforces contracts. I never said that we didn't need government, I just think it has gotten out of hand and is too unwieldly to operate efficiently. Most Congress people have been around too long and have gotten too comfortable and think they are entitled. We need some ongoing old timers with experience, but not this many. We need more new blood in the Congress.
I think that I already stated the conditions under which most contracts are invalidated or deemed unenforceable. Fraud is one, viability of one person to the contract (can't be a minor, disabled, blind, without help, etc...), failure of either party to perform is considered a breach of contract. The remedy of course is to sue, go to court and try to get a court of law to invalidate your contract. Otherwise, "would you like to buy some swamp land in Florida?" Caveat Emptor! People had the courts as a remedy if they felt they were defrauded in signing their house loan contracts. But remember, ignorance is not an excuse to invalidate a contract no matter how one sided or unfair the terms of the contract may be. You see the law does have a big healthy dose of personal responsibility embedded in it for the courts to adjudicate. Don't sign anything that you don't know what your signing. If you are not sure, get help! When it comes to product liability the Uniform Commercial Code comes in to play. If a product is defective you can return it of course. If you find that the product is defective due to some negligence or purposeful act on the part of the company, of course you can sue for damages if you are indeed damaged. Again, the courts would be your remedy. As far as all these charlaton, greedy bankers; the contracts themselves would have to be illegal in some way to hold them liable. What about the Real Estate Agents/Brokers? You don't mention them in the equation. They were a big part in selling that "snake oil" that you're talking about. What would you like to do with them? Just as an aside, I view real estate agents/brokers as just one step above a used car salesman. They don't have anyone's best interests at heart. Show me the commission is all they care about. This is just another group of people who were unjustly enriched by the housing boom. But you are right, a lot of them reinvested and lost their shirts too, and you don't feel sorry for them? Weren't they "duped" as well?
We have had housing booms in our history that have burst before. The last one was approximately 15 to 20 years ago. It has happened before and will happen again. Do you remember E.F. Hutton. When E.F. Hutton talks everyone listens? Well they no longer exist do they? Anyone with any brain at all could have seen this coming. I used to work in Walnut Creek, but couldn't afford to live there, although we had two very good incomes in my household. I used to wonder who could afford all these houses when I couldn't, although I had a good job with good pay. Then I started hearing about interest only, variable, and no money down loans. I thought OH NO how crazy can anyone be that they would sign any kind of loan to get a house? I thought OH NO if people keep getting loans to buy these houses then everyone will actually think that the houses are worth that much, when they aren't. Artificial inflation feeding on artificial inflation of housing prices. In order for the houses to be worth an amount there has to be a viable buyer and that buyer has to be able to get a loan. Enter Mae and Mac telling the banks that they will guarantee these very high risk loans. There are more players and it is more complicated than that, but that's the jist of it.
WOW, I will only touch on Katrina or I will be here all night. A lot of people, whether they will say it out loud or not, do think that a lot of people should have taken more personal responsibility for their own lives and left when told to leave. In certain areas in the country, like CA and earthquakes, there are risks in living there. The government is NOT YOUR MOM AND DAD. They can't protect you from everything and it is foolish to think that the government can protect you from "mother nature." I personnally would not live below sea level or on an island. That being said if the big earthquake hits CA I don't expect too much from the government either. I can leave right now if I want to. I choose not to for a myriad of reasons. All of which are my personal choice. I fully realized the RISKS IN MY CHOICE and will take responsibility for my personal choices.
As far as people qualifying for a lesser fixed loan and choosing a higher variable loan, I do think that goes to the greed and entitlement mentality. AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY IN MAKING ADULT FINANCIAL DECISIONS!!! Some people take risks, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. A fixed loan is a risk, variable and interest only loans are a higher risk. Just like the credit cards; if you can't pay them off every month you are irresponsibly abusing your credit. That is a personal choice. I can't afford a Bentley and I won't be signing a contract for one anytime soon! If I did and couldn't pay the loan, they would repo the car. Who's fault is that? The dealer's, the car salesman, the lender.... hmmmmm I THINK IT WOULD BE MY FAULT FOR BUYING A CAR I COULDN'T AFFORD!!! How many people do you think have made that financial boo boo in their day??? I think (no I know) a lot of people have done that.
We have anti-trust laws on the books for a lot of the reasons you mention that did get us into this mess. They just need to be enforced! And I agree that all lobbyists should be banned from Washington. Congress needs to get back in touch with the people they represent to find out what they should be pushing for in Congress on behalf of their constituancy. Being in Congress is not supposed to be such a "cushy" job. The people need more oversight and say in what Congress earns and what benefits they get so they can be reminded constantly of who they work for.
Healthcare. Are you kidding me that you want the government making decisions about your personal healthcare? If you live or if you die? What doctor you get to see, if any at all? If you get a procedure, operation, etc... or if you don't? How long you have to wait and wait and wait (in case they can wait until you die, in which case they can save the money)? If you get preventative care, tests for early detection of diseases, illnesses, or if you don't? If they let the teeth rot out of your head, or you have bad dental hygiene or crooked teeth for the rest of your life or not? Have you seen people's teeth from the UK? FRIGHTENING! People come here from all over the world to get state of the art procedures, operations, and drugs. Glaxo Smith Kline is working all the time on disease research such as; alzheimers, cancer, HIV and aids? Do you want all that to end?
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I agree that government enforces contracts. I never said that we didn't need government, I just think it has gotten out of hand and is too unwieldly to operate efficiently. Most Congress people have been around too long and have gotten too comfortable and think they are entitled. We need some ongoing old timers with experience, but not this many. We need more new blood in the Congress.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Raison D'etre
Taxation without representation has come full circle. We now have an economic meltdown that was predicted in 2004 and ignored. To compound the misery, the person who promised 'change' still refuses to address the source of the problem by removing the people responsible, and provide an immediate fix. Instead, he 'fixes' an ancillary problem by removing the CEO of GM, which was not the cause of the problem. I suggest you watch this video interview of Wm. K. Black on Bill Moyers over a cup of soothing tea.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
WARNING! This is likely to enrage the Obamabots who will try to point blame somewhere else. I attribute this as a symptom of the Jedi Mind Trick which seems to sap the mental abilities while stimulating the emotional responses. I suspect the reason there are so many Tea Parties planned is that more Americans have a clue about who pulled, and continue to pull, the strings of the members of both major political parties. After all, the financial institutions historically seem to contribute 45% - 55% split between the two parties, with the larger share going to the party of the President.
The fact that AIG is now 'owned' by the taxpayers while its board of directors who caused the meltdown remains intact at Congress' blessing is certainly a form of taxation without representation. My vote would be to fire the CEOs, CFOs, all executive VPs, and replace the boards of directors of AIG, Chase, and BofA for starters.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
I get it, if you supported Texan Ron Paul, another one of the many radical wingnuts who does not support regulation of the banks, you will go to disreputable internet sources and the already discredited Faux Not News and pretend that you have found the culprits causing the current crisis. And who are your culprits? Well of course as insane as it is, you and your Mad Hatter's Tea Party buddies think it is the current eleven week old administration. To boost your Mad Hatter's Tea Party, you will quote sources like Malkin who does not know her backside from her elbow. Very credible research you have done here. Real serious sources....NOT.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Well, I advocated the firing of all leaders and board members of all financial and manufacturing corporations seeking government assistance to bail them out of their own unregulated and risky management decisions ... way back in September of 2008 when they first asked for such help (but you would need to hit me over the head with a very large stick to cause me to change my mind that no one at any of those companies, at the Fed, at Treasury, or in the higher echelons of the Bush Administration knew that such failures were on the horizon long before they hit public awareness). I also advocated that all such corporations be placed in federal receivership, aka FDIC seizure of failing commercial banks. I didn't even object to federal seizure of stock with dividends paid out to all citizens until such time as the books of receiving corporations were balanced and the corporations themselves restructured (specifically, broken into smaller divisions and independent outfits that were not "too big to fail") before being sold at auction to new investors subjected to TIGHT regulation and control. As you can see, this is a bit of what you wanted, a bit of what Obama wants, and a bit of something that few people in this country are willing to support.
Okay, so you don't always get what you want. I know. For twenty of the last twenty-eight years I have not gotten what I wanted. It's called "losing" ... it's called being in the political minority. Get used to it. It cannot be "taxation without representation" because we just had an election and the folks who won are exercising their democratic right to enact the policies they said they would enact when they ran for office.
And to make things even more clear ... today, Wells Fargo (a corporation that received $25 billion in TARP money) has claimed a $3 billion profit in the first quarter of 2009. Could this mean that perhaps whatever it is that the Administration is doing might be working?
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
Again, the government was obligated (to some extent) to "bailout" some of these banks, insurance companies and other institutions because Mae & Mac "guaranteed" the "bad loans" at some level. That's what a lot of people don't get when they say "let them go under and don't bail them out." Again, it's a balancing act. Some institutions should have, did and will go under, but some institutions that definitely can be argued NEVER should have been allowed to "GET TOO BIG TO FAIL" did have to be "bailed out" because the government intervened AGAIN too much.
It's not just the greedy executives, union bosses, predatory lenders, and brokers that should all be fired, but also a lot of people in Congress that have mismanaged this whole situation. Democrats and Republicans have all had a hand in this over the years. And the people most responsible in government should be fired as well.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
In a democratic republic, we can "fire" those elected officials every two, four or six years. We can try to limit the amount of time that someone can serve in an elected position. There are other things we can do to tinker with the details (change how they are elected, change the boundaries of the districts they represent, enforce rules about the types of influence that can be peddled, etc.) ... but invariably anything that the majority of us want done must ultimately be enacted by the people that we actually vote for every two, four, or six years. There's an old truism ... what we get is what we want. If the majority of us really wanted something (or someone) different, then we would work hard to get, and communicate clearly the reasons why, we wanted something or someone different. A pretty famous person once said something to the effect that a government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed, regardless of what type of governmental power it exercises. In a democratic republic, if we keep returning the same people to high office with majority votes ... and they are, indeed, scoundrels ... then someone isn't doing a good enough job in exercising their human-granted right to legally replace them.
Fannie and Freddie are not government agencies. Lyndon Johnson removed that distinction. Fannie and Freddie are being bailed out because they invested in and sold bundled mortgages and other speculative financial tools just like the Big investment and commercial banks did. For over 30 years we have lived under the illusion that unfettered and unregulated business is honorable ... we have ceded direct access to political power to a select class of individuals, elevated them to a revered and exalted position, and festooned them with many of the trappings of religious idolatry. By way of example of what I mean, recall that throughout history people erect their tallest and most important buildings in deference to and respect of their most valued and revered beliefs.
We exempt the richest and most powerful amongst us from the normal rules and expectations of behavior, and we reward them with riches and incomes averaging 350-400 times more than the average American citizen earns. We allowed them to gamble and to speculate with our national wealth, and we allowed ourselves to be deceived by their silvery tongues. All the while that they assured us that they knew what they were doing and commanded us not to ask questions or to make any effort to curb the magic that they claimed to be working, they had their hands in our backpockets and were literally stealing the farm.
When the illusory floor holding the house of cards disappeared, it turned out that our New Masters of the Universe did not have on any clothes. They are being bailed out because apparently, the majority of our elected officials (and the people they appoint to advise and help them) lack vision ... or lack the courage to break from the old ways of doing business. We are just going to go on giving the same old Robbers more of our money so they can fix the thing that they broke (nudge nudge, wink wink).
I believe we are at a cusp. We have been at cusps, before. Sometimes we knew we were standing on one; other times we only discovered the cusp, after it had passed, in hindsight. But these troubled times definitely have a do-or-die feeling about them. A headline in my local paper today described how our food safety system is broken: designed fifty years ago, when food processing and distribution was still a largely local business, that system cannot address an industry that has gone global. Everything has gone "global", and it is spinning out of control. And the two biggest threats to human civilization (nay ... human survival) are hardly talked about at all, or if they are, in condescending or dismissive terms.
I speak of global climate change and global overpopulation.
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
What part of GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT EXIST DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!? Al Gore was a "has been" looking for a way (like Bill Clinton) to get money from doing talking gigs. It didn't quite work out for Al the way it did for Bill. So Al decided to be the " father of invention" and got some scientists and researchers to help him persuade people that the planet Earth was warming up due to our carbon footprint. And as ususal it was mainly the good old USA that was at fault. Although for over fifty years it has been the USA trying it's best to improve our air, water, soil quality, reduce pollution wherever possible, recycle, reduce our carbon footprint as much as possible, even reduce our population growth as much as possible. All the while other countries; China, Egypt, India, etc... are ever increasing their pollution and population to our planet while trying to stifle the USA industry via the Kyoto Treaty. Again another treaty designed to stifle the USA economy therefore giving more unfair advantages to other nations who are nothing but jealous of the USA. People all over the world want to come here. Not many of us leave here. Al was jealous of Bill and wanted a way to make money. There are more scientists that will tell you that we used to have an ice age on this planet and that the planet goes through cycles in it's life that we don't have any control over. Talk about people being ethnocentrists in the USA! Nothing is more ethnocentrist than thinking that a country with way less people than a lot of other countries is almost single handedly responsible for the climate of all of planet Earth. Some people are so gullible, it's scary. Sorry I don't subscribe to the "blame America first syndrome." We have done way more good than bad in this world. Hence the reason everyone is trying to come here and not leave here. I am all for less pollution, again we are the nation doing the most to be careful about pollution, while other nations are wanton polluters. Other nations also would love for us to not have nukes while they develope their nukes so that some day they will be the most powerful nation in the world. It's all about jealousy. If you're the top dog someone is always going to try to knock you down. We have the best and brightest in this country because people came from all over the planet to live here in order to do research, develope, produce, invent, and be free to do so. We're not perfect, but neither is any other country on this planet. So!!!???
And sorry, talking about gullibility, the government had it's hands all over Mae and Mac, and the bad loans that it ended up stuck with when the music stopped. A complete example of government over-reaching and creating yet another mess for the taxpayers to pay for.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I am not a climate scientist, but have been involved in statewide and national science education since 1984. By "science education", I mean collaborating with teachers, publishers, professors and practicing scientists to find the best way for educating poor young whipper-snappers to become something approaching scientifically literate, as best defined by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and its Project 2061 publication, Benchmarks for Science Literacy. I have worked closely with and in the science community all that ... with scientists famous, not-so-famous, and even infamous ... so I have a fairly broad appreciation for not only the processes of science, the people who practice it, and its content (ever changing, by the way), but also the various ways that people attempt to negate and/or undermine what science has to offer us.
There are no "answers", first off. All we have are better understandings and better explanations. Scientists are people, even if most are able to dispense with their day-to-day prejudices and human failings in order to attempt to do the things that scientists attempt to do, which is primarily to ask questions, collect information related to the questions (not necessarily in that order), and then objectively try to use the data to explain what they see. You don't last long in the world of science if you can't do those things. Still, science is a stubborn endeavor, and it takes a lot of evidence to convince all scientists that something is true. In my lifetime, I have seen this happen on three separate occasions:
• Watson and Crick first proposed the double-helix structure of amino acids that they called DNA in 1953. Until that time, genetics was a vibrant science (and people had been messing with it, even though they didn't know with what it was they were messing, since prehistoric times), but understanding the structure and function of DNA was not precisely known. More importantly, it provided the final and conclusive line of evidence to support a century-old theory that described the process of descent with modification ... what is popularly called "natural selection" ... and gave Charles Darwin's theory (actually, a synthesis of the ideas of many scientists preceding and peers of Darwin) a mechanism to explain it. Throughout the twentieth century, more and more evidence from more and more branches of the life sciences ... and even from different fields of inquiry ... supported Darwin's thinking. Even though popular (i.e., ignorant) culture still has difficulties with the theories of natural selection, in my lifetime I have seen it become the primary organizing principle of the life sciences. We have spent an awful lot of money -- both public and private -- on activities and projects based on the notion that our genetic structure can be modified for good (and ill) ... which is the fundamental basis of evolution.
• At the turn of the last century, a fellow named Alfred Wegener tied several previously noted, but disparate, observations together (including the boundary shapes of continents, similar fossils found on different continents, the alignment of magnetic materials in different locations, and so on) and proposed a theory that was popularized as "continental drift". His ideas were generally dismissed because a driving mechanism could not be found. That is, until technology caught up with what he had proposed. As we gained more and more evidence about the inside of the Earth, the structure of the bottom of the oceans, and other things (on, in and even outside of Earth), the idea of plate tectonics began to make sense to more and more scientists. Evidence supporting it, as had occured with the theory of natural selection, began pouring in from all fields of science. But even in the 1970s, when I first began teaching, almost every single textbook referred to tectonics as an "unproven" or "still disputed" theory. Today, while there are still a few holdouts, you will not find too many people who dispute the notion that forces at work inside the earth cause the earth to move. We have spent an awful lot of money -- public and private -- to make adjustments to how we live because of the knowledge this theory provides.
• In the 1960s, climatologists and a few scientists scattered in different fields began reporting that the earth was warming. By the 1970s, the notion was receiving public attention ... in wildly speculative stories in the lay-media about new ice ages, global freezing, and this new thing called "greenhouse" gases. It all seemed self-contradictory and wildly improbable, but that is because the popular media did not realize that the seemingly separate stories on which they reported were all variations on the same theme -- global climate change. As with the other two stories, more and more evidence began piling up from widely disparate fields of science, which in turn convinced more and more scientists that the planet was indeed warming. While only people blinded by religious conviction opposed theories of natural selection, and hardly anyone (except perhaps bridge and high rise builders) had an axe to grind with tectonics, some of the most wealthy and powerful forces in human society stood to lose a lot if their activities were linked to global climate change. Like it or not, we have been subjected to almost three decades of powerful, well-connected, purposeful, conscientious, devious and widespread propaganda designed to confuse and mislead us about climate change.
You can believe what you want. The planet doesn't "care" what you believe. You can continue doing what you have always been doing. The planet doesn't "care" about that, either. It didn't really care too much about how big, vicious, or plentiful dinosaurs were, if you remember correctly. You don't even have to accept the fact that people have anything to do with climate change (although that's a pretty defeatist attitude and suggests you've already given up and are willing to just sit idly by while we kill ourselves off). The planet is going to do what the planet does. Yes ... there are nay-sayers (just as there were nay-sayers about evolution and tectonics); but saying "no" didn't make Mount St Helens sit quietly; saying "no" did not stop the HIV virus from mutating and evolving. Saying "no" is not going to refreeze the melting polar ice cap, the rising sea levels, and the changing patterns of weather.
Let me put it another way. Scientists from lots of different fields and from all around the world noticed and then warned that a Category 5 hurricane was heading directly for New Orleans a few years back. A lot of people chose to disbelieve those scientists. They believed, instead, that the hurricane might change course. They believed, instead, that it wouldn't be as bad as the scientists said. They may have believed, instead, that even if the hurricane did strike dead-on the levees would hold. They might have believed that things wouldn't be too bad, and that they needed to stay in their homes to protect them from the bad people who always follow a catastrophe. Fine. But you know something, in the end it didn't matter what they believed, now did it?
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
I am not a scientist. Also, I didn't mean to imply that the Earth is or is not warming up over time. It may be. I agree the planet will do what it will do and doesn't care about human life. My only point is that Al Gore made "Global Warming" a FAKE BUZZ WORD upon which to travel and give speeches to make money. Al Gore is not a scientist and to give him any credit on this subject is LUDICROUS. He got involved in this issue to make money. Where is he now? My only other point is that the USA is not entirely or even the most to blame if the Earth's climate is getting warmer. Again, once upon a time the earth went through an Ice Age are we to blame for that as well? Regardless, if nothing else, the USA has tried, as usual, to be at the forefront of getting what ever scientific information is available, out there and try to reduce pollution where ever it can. Which is a good thing. I will keep asking the question of what other countries are doing to keep their pollution in check? I know and agree that the warming of the earth's atmosphere has been talked about for decades in reference to melting ice caps, greenhouse gasses and ozone layer destruction, etc... All I know is what happened this last winter had many parts of our country wondering when "Al's Global Warming" was going to kick in because it was mighty cold for a mighty long time.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Al Gore is not a johnny come lately in regards to climate change. After being elected to Congress in 1976, he sponsored and conducted the first Congressional investigations into climate change. He co-sponsored hearings on toxic waste and global warming, and introduced legislation to regulate (not adopted) both issues. In about 1988, he began writing a book on environmental conservation that was published in 1992 (Earth in the Balance: Ecology and the Human Spirit) -- the first book written by a sitting US Senator to become a National Best Seller since Profiles in Courage. As a Senator in 1992, he sponsored a conference attended by legislators from 42 countries that agreed on a Global Marshal Plan, in which developed nations would help undeveloped nations modernize while still protecting the environment. In 1993, as Vice-President, he promoted and pushed for adoption of a carbon tax to induce manufacturers to reduce fossil fuel consumption. In 1994, Al Gore launched (or participated in the launching) of the Globe Programme, an internet-based project designed to increase awareness amongst children of their responsibility towards the environment and of the issues related to global climate change. And have you forgotten that Al Gore was a principle advocate for and organizer of the Kyoto Protocol, and personally pushed the treaty through the US Senate in 1997? In 1998, he took a heap of abuse for personally signing Kyoto!
You seem to be party to the rewriting of history that right-wing critics of anything sensible seem to be so good at passing off as legitimate. Yes, Al Gore has made plenty of money from An Inconvenient Truth. Yes, some of it was exaggerated and presented more for its shock value (and therefore its ability to motivate an otherwise passive and unconcerned population) than its scientific veracity. But it is much more representative of consensus science thinking than ANY of the bull-peep printed and disseminated by "independent" and "scientific" organizations like the "Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine", "Science and Environmental Policy Institute" (SEPP), "The Heartland Institute", and others ... mostly funded by ExxonMobil for the past two decades.
Yes, Earth cycles through various climates based on a number of internal and external forces. Climate change occurs naturally. However, whenever individual species evolve to a point of surpassing the carrying capacity the planet has for their type (or, on a local scale, that local habitats cannot support), then the environment -- local or global -- tends to collapse. Period. We are now 6 billion strong, and expected to grow to 9 billion by 2030. If our activities to warm ourselves and to generate energy to make our lives easier don't upset the apple cart, then our demands for clean water and food will do the same!
But think about it ... energy and matter are not created or destroyed -- they just change form. Our planet is a closed system ... energy comes in, but it doesn't go out (except in very tiny and inconsequential amounts that radiate out). If three billion people generate x amount of energy in their cook fires, autos, televisions sets, and treadmills (etc.), then it's just going to add to the total amount of energy the planet naturally absorbs from the sun and receives from inside the earth. If we then add another 4 billion people, all putting out energy like their predecessors, just think how much MORE energy is now trapped inside the atmosphere. It's sort of like building a terrarium, you know? Have you ever done that? If you haven't, it means you take a big sealable container (say a one gallon glass mayonaisse jar), put some dirt and plants inside it, then some earthworms and insects and maybe a small vertebrate or two (if you're brave), add a bit of water and then seal it up to survive without any more input from you. If you do it correctly, it can survive for months and even years. But if it gets out of balance ... too many plants using up too much carbon dioxide and putting too much oxygen back into the system, too many animals consuming too much oxygen and putting too much CO2 into the system, or even too many living organisms giving off heat ... it falls apart and dies.
The United States has ... as you indicated ... been in the forefront of environmental conservation and protection. Hooray for us. But even you have to admit that every step taken to protect and preserve the environment has been accompanied by loud (and powerful) voices that oppose it or try to limit just what is conserved, where, or why (and even, at times, how). More countries should do more (although today, some countries are now doing more than we do). This still does not excuse those who misstate science and mislead the public in order to preserve their own special advantages.
As to what happened this last winter ... you are confusing weather with climate. Weather is what we experience each day ... it is different from day-to-day, from place-to-place, and even year-to-year in the same place and at the same day. Climate is the long-term average of weather patterns. When weather changes, it does not influence climate. When climate changes, it changes weather. A warming planet has cold weather ... the cold-related phenomena just move to different places, occur with greater or lesser frequency, and involve stronger or weaker systems. Look ... for thousands of years a complex system of energy transfer has taken place on the planet between atmosphere and ocean. Heating in one place is transferred to other places through a number of ways. Change any part of it, and the entire system can collapse. Case in point. Northern Europe is at the same latitude as Siberia and most of Canada. And yet, the "climate" of northern Europe for the last 14,000 to 20,000 years has been relatively mild (even if, on some days and in some locations, mildness does not seem so obvious). People can grow crops and raise domesticated farm animals in most parts of Europe that cannot be raised in Siberia or central Canada.
Why?
Because of massive ocean currents that are a part of a global energy transfer system -- a complex "conveyor belt", if you will -- that takes warm water and moves it around the planet. Though the water in the Gulf Stream actually originates in the south Pacific, I'll talk only about the part that travels up the east coast of North America before turning eastwards towards the west coast of Europe and sinking in the north Atlantic. It begins as very warm water, and is sucked northward to replace the cold water sinking off of Greenland. The temperature differences between the North Atlantic and the Caribbean are the forces that put and keep the current in motion. And it is the warm, moist air over it that blows across western Europe and modifies the atmosphere to moderate temperatures. Now, if the planet heats up, the ice sheets on Greenland melt and then the cold part of the cycle gets broken. Warm water no longer moves up to Greenland, moist warm air no longer blows across Europe, and Europe descends into an Ice Age. Global "warming" leads to Ice Age!
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
You can count on the following from any radical right wingnut
1. An attempt to position all of the ills we are currently experiencing at the feet of Bill Clinton.
2. Foolish non logical commentary regarding why there is "no" global warming.
3. Pitying the "poor, poor" "good old" US of A, because everybody is always picking on it.
4. Dozens of false unverifiable claims that in reality the "good old US of A" is the leader in trying to reduce our carbon footprint while at the same time building huge Hummers and slum mansions we can't even afford to heat, and building our swimming pools that we try to heat all winter and allowing Bush to stop requiring car companies to build more fuel efficient cars etcetera...
5. Claiming that the Kyoto treaty which their ignorant President and congress refused to ratify is somehow stifling "good old USA" industry. If you haven't signed it and you aren't requiring industry to live by it then it can be safely assumed that good old US of A industry is destroying itself due to poor management.
6. Trying to toss off our responsibility for increased global warming by pointing out that the planet has had ice ages and that somehow makes it okay for us to cause one by our own wretched excesses. Quoting already discredited scientific baboons as a source for their false claims.
7. Poor mouthing Vice President Al Gore and President Clinton...a lot.
8. Trying to blame the current eleven week old Presidential Administration for the mess created by greedy Republicans and their lack of Presidential leadership during 24 of the past 30 years.
9. Quoting irrational sources like Rush Limpbrain and Michelle Maulington and Faux Not News Network and various blogs like little green dingle berries or the Grudge report and Grunge Report.
12. Printing lines in capital letters like "GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT EXIST DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!?" I especially like the ! and ? marks placed together I guess that means that it is an exclamatory question?
13. Lots and lots of flag waving.
14. Frequently appealing to various evangelical cults.
Yes they all get pretty repetitive as they rant all over the place with their pathetic attempts at propaganda.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
Tea party attendees for the MOST part are not interested in tax RATES per se but the idea that taxes are ridiculous. Why are any of us paying anything to support the federal government. What does anyone here in CA get from the feds ? Our services are provided by the state, we pay for them via our state and local taxes. The federal government has failed to execute on its charter, whatever you can consider that to be, constitutionally, not what it has become corrupted to be.
Why are we paying all these taxes that don't benefit us? Get rid of the taxes, let people keep what they earn, it will be far more stimulating to the economy than stealing our money and then doling it back out to other people who didn't earn it.
Obama has said he supports the middle class, but he wants to tax us to death, its like when these politicians claim to support the troops, then why are you getting them killed in a foreign land? Why are any of us okay with the concept that our government can take our money by force and use it to get people killed? Why are YOU okay with it? Why is the left okay with it?
I also detest that the neocons are trying to horn in on the liberty movement. They don't support liberty, they support globalism and warmongering, which is exactly what Obama is supporting.
And whats this crap about taxing health care benefits? How is that NOT a massive tax increase for everyone with health care? My company spent 15K on my health care last year, so at even a modest 25% marginal tax rate thats a 4K tax increase.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Well, I have to admit that I have not heard very many anti-tax people demand that we not pay ANY taxes. That's a new one to me. If we paid no taxes, who would invade Iraq? If we paid no taxes, how would we defend ourselves from the next 9/11 gang? Or if Mexico decided to invade, would we just mobilize citizens to fight them off as a militia?
See, I have no problem paying taxes to support the need of government to defend us from foreign aggression (although I am not so keen to pay taxes that go to unnecessary aggression on our part) ... which just goes to show that being a liberal is a bit complex.
But if we didn't pay taxes, who do you suggest build the highways that permit interstate commerce? Does each airport get to broadcast air traffic control information on its own wavelength? Do private broadcasters get to broadcast on top of other broadcasters and jam their signals because there is no oversight? Is a peanut company free to follow whatever practices it wants in the processing of its commodity simply because it sells the peanuts in a different state? Do you ever visit and enjoy a National Park? How would it be different if operated by Disney, or if each Park had its own admission standards?
Enough ... your suggestion is ridiculous and shows just how immature tax protesters have become.
I disagree that most tea party goers are opposed to taxation, or opposed to tax rates. They are opposed to Barack Obama, and are upset that they lost the last election. Period. There were several people on this message board (some still writing, even under different names) who said, before the election, that if Barack Obama won, there would be non-stop efforts to make it impossible for him to do anything. Now, those type of people are acting out their fantasy ... and the fantasy is just this: my way or the highway. Copying the last executive, of course ... a person that very few of them criticized, ever!
I have a suggestion, which I lift liberally and modify from the words of Atticus Finch ... why don't you just try changing your perspective a wee bit and see how it fits. Instead of thinking that government "takes our money by force", why don't you think about it in terms of we give money to government to do the things a majority of us want it to do.
This even goes to waging war and getting people killed. I objected to the invasion of Iraq from the moment it was first proposed. I worked hard to do everything I could legally do to have my voice heard. Still, the majority of people allowed themselves to be tricked into supporting that invasion, and into believing the bull-puckey that they were presented to talk them into it. You certainly have a right to protest and speak out against tax policies or anything else about which you are upset ... but maybe you better get used to not getting what you want. With the assassination of Robert F Kennedy, I stopped getting much of anything I wanted from my government and have found myself in the minority most of the time.
Joined: Sep 2006
Current Posts: 1158
Although many Tea Party attendees may not be able to express their angst in terms of actions of their representatives, they still feel powerless, betrayed, and sense the country is heading in a wrong direction.
Taxing unborn children and grandchildren is ... gasp ... taxation without representation. Or are you seriously able to keep a straight face as you tell everyone that despite our current economic situation and dearth of wealth-creating jobs, we will be able to repay the tens of trillions of dollars of debt in a single generation? Now if Obama had chosen economic advisors outside of the group that got us into this predicament, I could cut him some slack (although it would still not make him a natural born citizen). But only fools ignore the socialist writings of his closest advisers, and his actions to implement the Cloward Piven strategy. What are the odds the New World Order would love to see the U.S. become a weakened, socialist entity, which strokes Obama's ego, and fits their needs to control a new, world-wide currency introduced to replace the weakened U.S. dollar? Would that explain the presence of the Bilderberg Group member Geithner as Treasury Secretary?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.htm...
Another problem I have is with the federal Dept. of Homeland Security. Supposedly as a federal entity its Constitutional basis is to deflect threats from a source external to the several states. But another recent 'secret' document was recently leaked that points to sources of U.S. citizens within the several states as potential threats. In 2005, the threats were from liberal radical groups. In 2009 the threats are now from conservative radical groups. In the 200+ years the Constitution has been followed we have been able to survive without such 'protection'. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here ...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/secret-dhs-doc-predicts-violence-in-response...
This plan to strip the United States of its sovereignty has spanned generations, and is certainly well beyond the average attention span of a typical citizen. It is time for the people who can to expose this danger. That would be the change people sought in electing Obama. Unfortunately Obama seems intent in providing continued protection of his globalist handlers. People attending the Tea Parties may not have your sense of history, but they do still have a sense of direction, and know something ominous is on the horizon in the direction they are being led.
I'll Keep My Freedom -
You Keep The Change
RealAmerica
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
And when your lil darlin Georgie Bush was tapping everyone's phones and you were loudly applauding we saw no angst. And of course you don't acknowledge that the biggest terrorist action ever committed by an America against America was from a radical right wingnut in Oklahoma City. I guess we can all see where your true loyalties are, and somehow we don't really see any America there, just a radical right sorta angst.
We all wish you a very nice Mad Hatters Tea Party no doubt you will be right at home with all the other so called patriots all wrapped up in red white and blue tea bags. No doubt you all will make a lot of fine specimens... for bags that is.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I, too, am not too happy with Summers, Geithner, et. al. and the apparent effort to rescue the bankers without holding them accountable for what they have done to us ... rewarding the rascals by privatizing their profits and socializing their losses. I am not too happy that it seems those who took risks are having their gambles covered without taking any steps to prevent them from doing the same thing over again once they get their feet back on the ground. Then again, I do not know the entire story. Maybe the plan is to stabilize the situation, first, and then impose rules and regulations to prevent it from happening again. You know ... like when some guy is admitted to the emergency room with a heart attack, the doctors take whatever emergency steps are necessary to stabilize his condition before they begin taking steps to address issues that might have caused the heart attack. We most definitely are in emergency mode, and I am willing ... though cautiously willing ... to see where Barack Obama is taking us before I cast final judgment.
The national debt created since Ronald Reagan first began borrowing to pay for the illegal things he did while cutting taxes at the same time is something that leader after leader has done since then (including Bill Clinton, who just happened to get lucky and serve while the economy was strong and revenues made the deficit smaller than it really was ... he did nothing to lessen the debt!). I haven't heard too many Republicans or Libertarians (other than Ron Paul) speak out against any of it until now. It's all too convenient to have any merit, in my book.
As for the Dept of Homeland Security (a good Nazi-sounding title), its responsibilities are broad and far-reaching, but essentially include everything necessary to protect America from terrorist attack (foreign AND domestic) and natural disasters. During the Bush administration, groups listed as possible terrorists may or may not have been "on the left" ... they tended to be groups made up of Muslims or people who supported Muslim causes, since as we "know", the only terrorists are Islamic. There are very very few extreme leftist groups in this country, and certainly none with a following numbering any more than in the tens. Despite this fact, I think most of us are at least a little bit uncomfortable with the idea that all that illegal wire-tapping and intelligence gathering being done outside of the FISA Court in the last administration was aimed at people and groups deemed to be "enemies" of the Bush regime. I do not recall reading anywhere, or at any time, revelations or suspicions that members of the Aryan Nation or the Minutemen were being spied upon, or even considered a "threat" ... this does not mean that they weren't, only that open speculation did not occur.
So, with the veritable non-existence of radical, dangerous, and well-armed leftist groups acting as a threat to national security ... all that is left are those rather outspoken and well-armed groups from the right that the last administration did not view as a threat (despite the fact that the largest acts of domestic terrorism ... at least since the days of the Haymarket Riot [which may have been perpetrated by agents provocateur] ... have been perpetrated by extreme right-wing groups). As to "surviving" from domestic threats of terror (i.e., "In the 200+ years the Constitution has been followed we have been able to survive without such 'protection' "), you obviously have forgotten the John Adams' Alien and Sedition Act, the Espionage Act of 1917, as well as the Sedition Act and the Anarchist Exclusion Act of 1918 ... all efforts designed to curb domestic terrorism and restrict the rights of targeted Americans.
People attending the Tea Parties certainly have a right to object to decisions and policies enacted by Barack Obama. We certainly have an obligation to listen to what they have to say. From my perspective, they said nothing new. I listened to and watched video clips of speeches given by Sean Hannity, Neil Cavuto, Glenn Beck, Newt Gingrich, John Boehner, Dick Armey, and Gov. Perry at the various Tea Parties they attended ... it all sounded like tired Republican rhetoric to me, all the more astoundingly useless because it failed to take into account that these are the very same people who promoted and led the efforts creating the conditions bringing us to where we are today! I attended two protests, myself ... some of the folks who showed up might just have been living the life that George Will so recently lambasted (the tendency of Americans from all walks of life to "dress down" and appear more slovenly and "common" as real commoners), but I did not see any visible evidence that any of them were in the million dollar income bracket; most, in fact, appeared to be people who will benefit from the Obama tax cuts (and everyone to whom I actually spoke verified that fact for me). None could tell me how or when they had ever protested the growth of our national debt from the time of Reagan, or when they had EVER protested a Republican government spending more money than it took in.
In short, if Barack Obama can initiate policies to staunch the financial crisis, get people back into their homes (a step, amazingly, still proceeding at a snail's pace) and back to work, he will indeed cut the budget deficit in half by 2012 (or hopefully close). The NEXT step is to address the national debt which, as you rightly point out, is so amazingly and mind-bogglingly large that it cannot be paid off in a single generation (so we might as well make it bigger if it helps avoid a complete melt-down of the economy). The fact that we have to pay it off, however, is just another of the many important decisions that Republicans (and many Democratic hangers-on) have managed to put off and pushed to the background since the 1980s. So why get your underwear in a bunch after just 2.5 months of Democratic rule?
Joined: Jul 2006
Current Posts: 285
>>... rewarding the rascals by privatizing their profits and socializing their losses. I am not too happy that it seems those who took risks…<<
Shays they (the bankers) took no risk at all, it was the investors whose money they risked and it is the loss of profits that are being given back to the bankers by the ‘investors’ i.e. the American taxpayer. It just doesn’t get any better. If it could be any better the bankers influence within Congress and the Presidency would make it so. These people are at a beggar’s banquet for the filthy rich. They are poor because they couldn’t make their next billion and actually might have lost a million in their self imposed hard times. Honest to God it staggers the imagination what Obama’s finance ministers are doing without oversight of Congress the Courts or the Presidency. It is against the law to investigate what they are doing with the money as well as influence any of their decisions.
Congress has given the right to declare war and the right to control the Treasury to the President; what's left, the right to pass sentence? Oh I forgot Guantanamo darn it.
Full spectrum dominance by the ‘almighty kings to come’ of America, may they reign a thousand years until there is nothing left.
>>like when some guy is admitted to the emergency room with a heart attack, the doctors take whatever emergency steps are necessary to stabilize his condition before they begin taking steps to address issues…<<
There is just one big difference between a doctor and a banker; the doctor cares about the patient and the bankers could care less. Doctor’s deals with life or death and bankers deal with death and resurrection i.e. a rebuilding of the wealth distribution system that will be born again from hell designed to engineer unsustainable growth resulting in again another bubble economy that will again collapse around our ears.
I’m telling you that the Bankers want this earth and its people to be a plantation in which they can extract not just wealth because they already have that but what they want as well is prestige among themselves within their own power structure through the garnering of these resources. The whole dam thing is an ego trip among the most grotesque minds in the universe and Obama can not escape these voices of ultimate authority and their wishes. The American public is being treated to the good cop bad cop routine and right now Obama is the good guy come into the room while the bad guy exits stage right.
My whole point is this will remain a continuum until somehow the human race can break the circle of corporate imperialism where the few have it all and are determined to get more. We have to wrest personhood and all the rights that go along with personhood from the hands of multinational American corporations, to not do so now means the loss of personal rights for individual personhood upstream.
I’m not casting a final decision on this Administration but it don’t look good based on Obama’s advisors both in finance and war.
As for Reagan, HW and Clinton, talk about different faces on the same ideology i.e. corporatism; what can be said except that if you are in the circus business the same clowns keep coming through and all have differences that throw the American public off balance as to who represents what. Now we have another face and the question is whether he is sincere or a clown. Will Obama represent the people’s interest or the corporate sponsors that catapulted him to the Presidency?
>>As for the Dept of Homeland Security (a good Nazi-sounding title),<<
The first time I heard Homeland Security mentioned my ears perked up like a bird dog. It is a textbook Nazi slogan right up there with the Third Reich and The New World Order; I think we are now as far ahead of the Nazis at spinning propaganda as a twenty year old is to a two year old. Boy can we show the Nazis a thing or two about raw unexpurgated state driven capitalism taking the most destructive path it possibly can toward the consuming of the planet and its people. The only thing that has changed is that the target is no longer the Jews but the Germans, I mean the Arabs. Fat chance the Germans will ever have to pay for the Holocaust which makes the circle complete for the German corporate elite as well as the Jewish bankers that provided the tools and the expertise to successfully and guiltlessly kill six million Jews sponsoring a war that killed twenty seven million Russians and forty million others What a way to run a world by reducing population and expanding capital growth through human and natural resource extraction. I just don’t understand why war is a noble cause in which we honor those we train to kill and thereby honor war itself when everything is based on a Mafioso creed of greed.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Of COURSE the bankers took no risks ... and they continue to show their true colors in several respects: they'll allow certain restrictions to be placed on their practice in regards to providing loans to deadbeats (do you know that someone with a $9000-ish balance who pays only the minimum 2% balance each month at an average of 18% interest ends up paying over $28K for something(s) they probably couldn't afford ... and probably didn't really "need" ... in the first place?), but then turn around and shaft the folks who have been their "best" customers. Please note that "best" does not refer to those who follow the rules, but we are the ones who will now start paying an annual fee to use the card, will have interest rates apply as soon as the card is swiped, and a whole slew of new "addendums" to our "contracts" designed to gouge responsible Americans (now that the irresponsible ones have been taken away). Meanwhile, they make sure that the Congress quickly dismisses an effort to cap usurious interest rates.
I have, in various locations on this web site, suggested that as capitalism grows and expands (and, by definition, it must expand) ... as wealth and power centralizes and shifts to increasingly fewer hands ... we move closer to a New Feudalism. I still see some hope and some promise in the Obama administration, but as you suggest, it is fading with each lost opportunity to exact natural consequences from the people who drove our economy into the ground (and in real terms, "economy" is not some abstract concept about how a society conducts business, but actually means the lives of tens of millions of Americans that have been driven into the ground by no work, no hope for work, underpaid work, lost homes, and lapsed health insurance). The good cop/bad cop analogy is a good one ... which is why clowns like Newt Gingrich are such jokes and can come on shows like Good Morning America to demand the resignation of Nancy Pelosi because she "lied to Congress" by saying the CIA lies.
Of COURSE the CIA lied (and continues to lie). That's what it does!
But that's not the point (which, unfortunately, IS the point) ... Newt is a distraction, Nancy Pelosi is a distraction, her "lying" is a distraction: the finger cannot dip into the slimy pond of how we obtained the fabricated evidence used to justify the unnecessary invasion and occupation of Iraq, how the Treasury was looted to pay for that adventure, and how the deck has been stacked to loot the Treasury completely.
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
Who needs any Army, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard? Who needs Social Security? Who needs any highway system or federal water projects? We don't need these things we can all live very comfortably like any central African nation without any recognizable government at all. After all under Bush II we had no central government and we did great.
Our founding fathers really intended for us to have no government at all after the Revolutinary War debts were paid off. But then those darn Republicans and Whigs and Democrats and Do Nothings (oops not them) and all of those other pesky politicians went and did really stupid things like expanding our borders coast to coast and building the finest infrastructure of any nation in the world. We don't really need Texas; come to think of it if we had left them alone we would not have had any Bushes in our lives.
Please everyone put on your tea bag costumes and go join all of the others at the Mad Hatter's Tea Parties being sponsored all over America by your friendly radical right wingnut societies. You know the same people who brought you Tricky Dickey Nixon and Tricky Dickey Cheney and W. Whoo Hooo!
Joined: Sep 2008
Current Posts: 130
In your tax vision; What would you do with Hollywood moguls (screenplay writers, producers, directors) movie stars, talk show hosts (Oprah), famous musicians, singers, etc..., professional athletes, professional models, inherited wealth and the OLD RICH (the Kennedy's and the like), people with Magazine,Book Deals (like Obama's $500,000 one), people that are rich with assets, property, art, jewelry, etc... How would you tax these people? Why should they have more than the average American? And how do you propose to have them "give up" their wealth?
Why should the President and Congress have better pay and benefits than the average American?
Joined: Jul 2008
Current Posts: 775
I saw no tax breaks for the people you mention in the current plans being discussed. Have you read any of them? Your suggestion that everyone should earn as much as the "average" American lacks any logic and needs much more clarification.
President Obama currently earns $400,000.00 per year plus he can spend $50,000.00 per year on governmental expenses, $100,000.00 on travel and $19,000.00 for entertainment. If you compare that with any business person who is the Chief Executive officer of a large business you will find that they receive far more than our President does.
Members of congress receive around 165,000.00 annually which is roughly equivalent to what a good University Professor or IBM Salesperson earns.
As for the medical benefits and retirement benefits, I could not agree with you more. America is one of the last industrialized nations in the world that does not offer medical insurance to all of its citizens as a matter of course. We initiated Social Security as a financial safety net for people who were too old or infirm to earn a living over seventy years ago but we failed to extend it to the entire population. Two governmental errors related to social security is the failure to require that it be paid by all governmental workers and the failure to keep Presidents Reagan, Bush I, Bush II and Clinton from using the fund for purposes other than its original intent. Did you know that the Reagan through Clinton abuse of the Social Security Fund are one of the primary reasons that people claim Social Security will go bankrupt in the future?
You also asked about people who are inheriting estates like the Kennedys etcetera and once again you have identified one of our bigger problems. The equitable distribution of wealth among all of the citizens of a country has always been a particularly thorny problem. It is the main reason we used to have Kings and Queens and Emperors and the like. By fair or foul means some people acquired considerable wealth; enough to even amass their own armies and set themselves up as "divine right leaders" of the masses. Often they also hoodwinked the people by claiming to be a God like the Pharaohs and Roman Emperors did and when that failed they set up other religions to proclaim as rulers by "divine right" like the old European aristocracy. Modern nations have developed dictatorships that are held in power by brute force like the Chinese; combinations of brute force and religion like Iran and Israel both of which are theocracies and in many countries there are attempts to have the people elect leaders like in the United States. Parallel to these governments forming, we have also developed economic systems in all of these countries with the most successful economic system being what we refer to as capitalism. Capitalism is supposed to work by allowing people and companies to "fairly" compete for business against each other with the most successful people and companies experiencing significant growth in assets and wealth. In theory these businesses and individuals were somehow supposed to be self regulating in that it was believed once their leaders had sufficient wealth to see to their material needs these people would then share their wealth to the benefit of all of the people in their country.
The problem is obvious to any student of human nature. Humans seem to have an inherent unlimited capacity of greed and a rapacious desire for power. So naturally when these capitalists succeeded by hook or crook they went the next step and began to control the elections or dictatorships within their own countries. This has happened in America and it is happening as I write this all over the world. We don't seem to learn the lessons of history that we should have learned from the "Great Depression". The Great Depression was caused primarily by capitalist speculators whose speculations drove up the theoretical values of stock and land and commodities to ever increasing levels. Just as the recent real estate bubble popped so too did the speculative bubble of the era just before the Great Depression. Then as today the Republican Party with some limited support from Democrats had placed protections in the tax codes for wealthy corporations and their owners/managers. This led to things like Hearst Castle you may want to go see outside of San Luis Obispo, California, a great example of our rapacious greed. Today we have managers of corporations who are being paid ludicrous incomes of tens of millions and sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars. These men and women in turn have been successfully controlling our elections, up until this year by using their money to buy the services of people like Rush Limbaugh (a willing servant of the rich). Dick Cheney, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and Bush II. They are intelligent enough to inflame the passions of people they never would spend a minute of time with by propagandizing various cultish religious ideas and by fanning the fires of resentment via extremely emotional issues like gun control. In their eyes it does not make any difference if they are telling the truth, all that is important to them is that they are holding on to the wealth that they got by hook or by crook.
So there you have it in a nutshell jonesca100. We do have big problems in America with the distribution of wealth and services and I pray that we will solve these issues before they are solved for us by some huge dislocation led by an ill informed populist sentiment like the Mad Hatter's Tea Parties which by the way are just a diversionary tactic being used by the wealthy to take your eye off of the real issues which is their greed and desire to retain power at all costs. That is why their various propaganda organs like the Fox News and others have been promoting them. Don't let them dupe you again, tell them enough is enough and turn off the television.
The sooner we correct these problems the better it will be for everyone.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Barack Obama just released his tax records for 2008 ... he paid about $855,000+ on about $2.5 million in adjusted gross income. Do the math.
I like movies, I like music (almost all entertainment and the arts), and I like professional athletics. I think the superstars are all overpaid, but then in the professions in which they work, the people who hire them make even larger incomes ... so I guess the obscene incomes are in line with and relative to the amount of money Americans are willing to pay for their diversion.
How would I tax them? Duh ... how about in the same that all Americans are taxed ... there is a progressive tax schedule that takes a higher percentage of income the greater the income becomes (up to a certain point, of course).
Your second question ("why should they have more") is irrelevant ... there are no "should's". They have more because they have more. Nothing wrong with that. Nor should they be required to "give up their wealth" ... as a matter of fact, I know of no one asking them to "give up" their wealth. Your third question ("why should the President and Congress have better pay and benefits than the average American") is a better question, but in current circumstances I think the answer is self-explanatory. We have decided, amongst other things, that we would like to attract effective leaders to public service by offering them a salary competitive with people doing similar work in the private sector (not that it has necessarily succeeded in doing so), or that we would rather pay our leaders an attractive salary than have them rely upon bribery for their livelihood (not that being paid a great salary has ended bribery or lobbyists).
My personal belief is that the salary of elected officials (and managers in the private sector, too) should ALWAYS be pegged to the salaries of the people they lead ... but not too many people seem to buy into my model. I also believe that every American should have the same benefits that our elected officials are offered ... at least Barack Obama agrees that we should all have the same health care benefits that he has.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
If someone has so much more than they actually need to live, and your concept hinges on fairness, then why should someone like Barack Obama be able to hang onto his millions? He doesn't NEED that money. If he were left with 10K a year after meeting his obligations, and saving for his retirement, why isn't that "fair"? Instead he's got millions left...why? Shouldn't a fair system seek to redistribute that, make some distinction between him and the people he calls rich who only make 250K a year and spent every last penny of it just securing to themselves, food shelter trasportation medical care , college, and retirement? Why the discrepancy?
Surely if you can demand that a guy making 250K a year end the year with no excess, you can demand that a guy making 4M a year end it with nothing as well, right?
How about a 95% tax on income over 500K a year, would you support it? How about instead of a minimum wage, we have a maximum wage?
Believe me, you'd get a lot more tax revenues taking 95% of everything over 500K a year than you would on taking 50% of incomes less than 500K.
But Barack Obama represents the rich and elite. These people aren't affected by higher taxes of a few more percent, it makes no difference to their lives. None at all. Its a nuisance but doesnt change life. Thats why this whole argument is hypocritical. You're treating people who can have to expend everything they earn to be self sufficient, the same as people who have millions left over after doing the same thing.
I'm not condoning income taxes, just pointing out that fairness, ultimately, would require some progressivity that prevents massive inequalities from developing. Thats what we have today.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
I do not mean to demean your comments, because I think you are trying really hard to think them through ... trying really hard to anticipate my responses and set up an argument for what you think I think ... and trying really hard to dismiss "fairness" without seeming to be unfair. Not an easy row to hoe, but you did a pretty good job.
Let me rephrase the question, because I think you misunderstand what it is I am trying to say. You may even misunderstand the tax code, though I don't think so. Remember, until Ronald Reagan's second term, the maximum tax rate on the highest income earners in this country was 50%. The economy was struggling when Reagan took office ... but not because of taxation. Stagflation was the outcome of the borrowing done by Kennedy, increasingly by Johnson, but mostly by Nixon, to finance the war in Vietnam. Taxes were quite high back then (hovering near 90% when Kennedy took office ... which, coincidentally, is a figure close to what you ask me would be fair), but the war cost a bundle. I do not think anyone has really done an important or significant study of exactly what the cost of Vietnam was to the United States (and I don't just mean financial, though that is the focus of this discussion), or how long it took us to "recover" from it. Maybe we haven't ... I have many good friends that survived service there, and none of them has really adjusted to lead what most of us would call a "normal" life, including two suffering severe health issues arising from exposure to chemicals they weren't told were being used and one still struggling with the doses of LSD and other "exploratory" drugs he was administered while serving time in the brig in 'Nam.
But I digress. I am shooting from the hip, here ... usually I check my facts before writing them down, but this topic has come up a lot of late and I think I have it correct (and am sure some one will correct me if I am wrong) ... but I think the progressive tax was instituted in 1913. People have argued about the fairness of the tax rates as they break out in the progressive tax, but most people have come to accept the progressive nature of that income tax as "fair". That doesn't mean that everyone has accepted it, or even likes it ... nor that they have to accept it or like it ... or that they can't express their dislike of it. But it does mean that for almost 100 years, people have lived with it and most people are okay with it. You will have a very difficult time trying to undo or eliminate the progressive tax.
As you know, under the progressive tax, people earning different amounts of money pay different percentages of their adjusted gross income as income tax. The breaking points are arbitrarily set ... but they have a basis in reality which in part is determined by the advantages (real and perceived) that certain incomes provide to their earners. People who earn up to "x" amount pay 10% of their adjusted gross income; people who earn between "x" and "y" pay 15%; people earning between "y" and "z" pay 20% and so on to a minimum-maximum (currently set at $357,700) where the earner pays 35% plus a standard amount regardless of whether they earn $357,700 or $2,500,000 or $25,000,000. We could, if you were so inclined, break the brackets down even more finely so that Barack Obama pays even more in taxes than he paid last year, or a guy making the $25,000,000 pays a whole bunch more than that.
I do not know a single person, other than yourself, who has proposed such a tax system. Most people are fairly agreeable to the current six brackets and the incrementally greater percentage of AGI that people in higher brackets pay.
I am not proposing anything different, nor is Barack Obama. He has proposed setting the minimum income for the highest bracket at $250,000 ... which roughly includes about 2% of the people in the country. He has further proposed re-setting the percentage of the tax paid at this level of income and higher to the levels they were set in 2001.
He does not propose taking more than that. He does not propose taking everyone's income away so everyone earns $10,000 (or $25,000 ... or any other sum you want to name). The so-called "redistribution" of wealth is not designed to make everyone's income THE SAME, but to ask those who earn more to pay more (mostly for the services that they receive which, which despite propaganda to the contrary, they probably use much more than the unemployed welfare earner that so many people think are going to profit from "taking away the rich man's earnings"). Some of the tax money goes to the social programs we have tried to establish to take care of the people some of us would prefer would just die or disappear. Others of us do not think that is a good solution, nor do we think forcing them to fend for themselves is such a good idea, either. Safety nets and hand-ups are a good idea. If the hand-ups have become more like hand-outs, then maybe it is time to adjust how we think about them and how we administer them ... a lot of us stupid liberal socialist commies are more than willing to find ways to make the system work better.
Most of the money, though ... and isn't it convenient how quickly people forget this ... that we ALL pay in taxes goes to the military-industrial complex that a grand war hero and Republican President warned us about ever so long ago. Maybe another thing we could do is figure out whether we want to continue expanding and defending an economic empire ... an awful lot of money goes to jet fighters, for example, that don't work, never get made on time, and never get made within budget ... and, if you look around pretty carefully, it's awful hard to find a nation with more than a handful of jet fighters that these fighters need to engage in combat.
Hmmm ...
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 363
<I disagree that most tea party goers are opposed to taxation, or opposed to tax rates. They are opposed to Barack Obama, and are upset that they lost the last election. Period. There were several people on this message board (some still writing, even under different names) who said, before the election, that if Barack Obama won, there would be non-stop efforts to make it impossible for him to do anything. Now, those type of people are acting out their fantasy ... and the fantasy is just this: my way or the highway. Copying the last executive, of course ... a person that very few of them criticized, ever!>
Some of us can figure out that Obama's "fiscally responsible" campaign promises do not match reality. After rightly complaining about deficit spending under Bush, Obama is projected to increase it more and he's only been in office for about three months. He looks silly by claiming to want to "save and invest" and then calling on congressional leaders for a "fiscal responsibility" summit. So who is going to pay for all this? This can not be fixed by restoring Clinton era tax rates on the "rich".
I suspect his recent comments about "simplification" and "closing loopholes" of the current tax code is going to result in larger portions of the electorate paying little or no income tax with the top 5% carrying the load. This provides an opportunity to create a larger voting bloc (presumbly Democrat) that has no incentive whatsover to control taxation/government spending since they do not have to shoulder the burden/costs. And Democrats will probably continue drag out the "not paying their fair share" argument for the remaining who actually do pay income taxes when funding starts to dry up.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
So I am going to assume that you make more than $250,000 a year. Good for you. I have no problem with people who do (as you seem to think I do) . Both of my daughters fall into that category, and I am quite proud of their skill and accomplishments enabling them to do so well for themselves and my grandchildren. They earn substantially more than I do, and they pay their taxes at a higher rate than I do. They do, as you repeatedly tell us, pay more to the government than do I. But by almost any "objective" standard of measurement that you might want to use, they have benefitted more than I by living in the society that our government serves (though at times they have told me that by other, more "subjective" standards of measurement, they may not be quite as happy or unencumbered as I).
But despite the greater amount of money that they give to government, they both still manage to have enough money to own two homes (principle residence, each; one family owns a vacation home, the other a rental). When they vacation, they vacation in Europe or Hawaii or central America. They can afford tickets to Giants and As games, and go to concerts with the increasingly pricey tickets on a regular basis. Yes ... they have both had to cut back a little and didn't buy the new car this year before the "old" one reached 100,000 miles ... and may find that higher tax rates might cause them to rethink some of the ancillary things they do in their lives for entertainment. But they are not lacking in anything, and satisfy the basic needs of food, shelter, air and water with relative ease.
And believe me, if living on more than $250,000 a year is "difficult" (even if 39% of it goes to the fed), just imagine what it is like when you are trying to make ends meet for a family making the median annual income of $42,000. Sorry, but the "woe is the rich" just doesn't cut it, especially when talking about financial advantages.
So far, though, you have not said what you would do in a society where almost a quarter of the population lives below the poverty level (about $15K a year) and isn't paying "it's fair share" of the tax burden. Nor have you said what you would do if you suddenly cut all the social programs that taxes support ... the logical extension of using taxes to pay for people who are too lazy to get a job. Would you rather give 39% of your income to a charity? Or would you pay just enough taxes to hire more police to protect your mansion from the starving mobs when they get fed up and decide to take what they want, rather than receive it in a somewhat passive manner?
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
The idea that you want to tax us to protect us, rather than allow us the freedom to be responsible for our own protection, for example, is a totally statist concept. Disarm the people, and legally hamstring their defensive abilities, then tax them to "provide" them with police services, except make sure that legally, the police have no duty to defend anyone, or to do anything, and set it up so the police can never be sued or held liable for a failure to perform any "duty".
I don't believe in the idea that people need two homes, at least not in the sense of defining the middle class. That gets into leisure, which by definition is not middle class. However, traditionally middle class just means the class that works but is not hourly, so its less about lifestyle and more about occupation. Your daughters would be upper middle class, but still middle class, not rich. People need one home. Two is an excess. I don't know where your daughters live, but here, if you make 250K and have a family of four, and you want to live in, say, 10 miles of your employer (which we'll call Apple Computer, just for the sake of argument), then you are going to need all of the 250K to have the one home, to provide medical insurance and care for your family of four, to buy food, to buy clothes, to save for college, and for retirement, and maybe to take one or two weeks of vacation in a place more than 500 miles away (lets just say for the sake of argument that your two weeks is outside the country, so that you can broaden your children's horizons and expand their cultural knowledge via foreign travel). You're not going to have anything left over. In fact, you might not even squeeze in the vacation. The 250K is going to evaporate pretty quick. Taxes are the biggest hit, of course, nearly half of all the earnings is going to a combination of income and use taxes, so that leaves 125K. Say you have a house in Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, San Jose, that holds a family of four, lets call it a 2500 square foot SFR. Lets just say its in Sunnyvale, so we're avoiding the town where you work, which would be ultimately the best choice for the worker and for the employer and for society in general, since that would require a 1M-1.2M home, lets go to Sunnyvale where its 800K instead. So you put down 160K, (no mention of how you got that, right?) and have a mortgage of 640K, which is about $4500/month in P&I and taxes. So that shoots 54K right there, leaving you with 71K. Then you've got insurance of various kinds: medical, dental, life, car, home, lets call that 1K a month. Then you need transportation, so lets say you have two vehicles of a modest price range, lets call its 25K each (cant even get a honda accord for that, but what the hell, we're middle class, not rich, in this example, right?), so thats 50K on which payments are $500/month. So now you are down to $4400 a month, and we haven't bought any food or clothes or gas to put into the cars. Lets call that together 1200K a month, being fairly conservative, since if you spend 200 a week on food and gas, that leaves only 400 a month to buy clothes for the whole family, not a very big clothing budget at less than 100 per person. Next time you go to Target, try to buy a kid a pair of jeans, a pack of underwear, a pack of socks, a pair of shoes, and a couple of shirts and see what you spend. Now we're at 3200 left and we haven't saved anything for college or retirement. I could stop this example right here and just say that if you think as a rule people should save 20-25% of their earnings, you've got to save all of the 3200. But lets just do the numbers. college at a UC system is 15K a year right now, today, that means it will reasonably be 30K in 15 years or so, so thats 250K in college, and you have 15 years to save it, so you need about 12K a year, or call it 1K a month....down to 2200 and we've still saved not a penny for retirement! Again we could plug in the number and say we have to save it all, but lets just run the numbers. Lets say when you retire your costs will be 100K a year. And you'll be retired for maybe 20 years? You need 2M. Hmm, maybe you really do need to save the entire remainder, thats going to take over 50 years to accumulate even with good interest rates, which of course aren't available anymore. Of course, we didn't even get the vacation in, or pay for any unforeseen or irregular expenses like a major illness or medical procedure.
By the way, I'm talking about tax fairness, so you tell me, what makes it fair to tax the money people need to live on with dignity and without being a burden to others? My example is simply that 250k a year does not automatically make one rich. It might in Alabama. But not in the SF Bay Area. There's no means testing for taxation, which would be one fair method. Or by exempting the costs of life with dignity from taxation, which is another method. Or lastly, not stealing the fruits of people's labor, which is the fairest of all.
We can talk about a fair property tax, if you like. But I think the income tax is a non starter. Why the government should be able to steal this money still has no supporting arguments that pass a simple sniff test.
They take it because they can. Just like thieves...steal what they can, when they have the opportunity.
Joined: Jul 2005
Current Posts: 1715
Whew ... thanks for the run down on economics in the Bay Area. I am sure you have all of your i's dotted and t's crossed, since you live there and suffer the ignominy of the entire experience on a regular basis. I moved from Carmel Valley to Oregon City, OR for precisely the reasons you outlined. What a rat race, and not worth it (for my wife and I, and our needs, anyway). Before living in Carmel Valley, we lived in a little unincorporated village in the True North of California (Trinity County) ... sort of like moving from Hicksville to Margaritaville. People used to complain a lot about things in Trinity County ... television reception, medical and emergency service, salaries (and so on) ... but the general response we got whenever we opened our mouths to complain … and which we all grew accustomed to … was always the same: We chose to live there, so stop complaining or go somewhere else.
There you go. We make our own beds … if we want to lay in it, then we have to pay the piper whatever it is that he demands. If you work for (let's say) Apple Computer and you write software or are an engineer earning an upper middle-class (or, more accurately, a lower upper-class) salary, you do so because you made choices that brought you to that profession and to that location. If you have been upwardly mobile in your lifetime, finding "better" communities or neighborhoods in which to live as your skill and expertise brought you increasing financial advantage, then you still have made choices in respect to that upgrading. Many of us are driven more by circumstances or factors that seem beyond our control, of course, but we nevertheless make the choices that we make and we find that we always must live within the constraints that our choices put upon us.
One of the "constraints" placed upon ALL of us, of course … except perhaps the most severely destitute in our midst … is the inevitability of taxes. They are always there, always have been, and they don't change all that often. They certainly don't jump out of the closet or the bushes and ambush us each year. Most of us, unless we are independent contractors or self-employed, have the taxes withheld from our weekly or monthly checks, so we spread the agony out over the year and cross our fingers that we overpaid and will get some of it back when the taxes come due. We know they're there, of course, we know we're paying them, and we know in our individual hearts of darkness that one day we'll actually have to sit down and fill out the forms on our day of reckoning, but they are such an integral part of our life that most of us hardly think of them until we have to.
In other words, most of us make our budgets and our financial plans … similar to the outline you provided … with our take-home pay in mind. Things happen, of course, and sometimes we don't calculate our withholding correctly, so we owe some money … but this is almost always because we earned more money than we anticipated, not less! Somehow, it seems that a prudent and conscientious wage-earner who goes to the trouble to break down their annual expenses and their future needs will have taken this into consideration, as well. And, the hard reality of all of this is really quite simple (and is merely a repetition of the mantra the Right has been regurgitating lately about the poor who seem to want a guaranteed living for nothing) – if, after taxes (income, property and sales), you have spent more than you earn, you are living beyond your means and maybe need to think about downsizing or changing your lifestyle a bit.
Some of your figures are a little questionable, however, and run contrary to my own experiences. In my lifetime, and when I have completed my own 1040 (which I have done all my life), I have discovered that I have these two distinct things, called gross income and adjusted gross income. If my gross income is $250K, then I have already had quite a bit of it withheld (and, because I have also done quite a bit of contracted work in my lifetime and haven't had wages withheld, then I have either paid quarterly estimated taxes or have impounded what I thought was the correct amount so there were no surprises on April 15 … the same goes for state property taxes, by the way, but of course you know that). I have learned that the more income I have, the more deductions from that income I can claim, and the lower my adjusted gross income will be. I (and Uncle Sam) determine how much I owe the IRS based on the AGI, not my gross income. Therefore, if your AGI is $250K and "half" of it goes to taxes (Federal income tax, state income tax, state property tax, state and local sales taxes, and miscellaneous excise fees and use taxes assessed on specific things), then this means you earned significantly more than $250K, before the taxes were assessed, and you therefore have a pool of money floating around somewhere that you forgot to tell us about. If your gross income is $250K, then with a family of four and a $4500/month mortgage (plus whatever other deductions you claim) your AGI will be much lower than that, and you will pay your taxes at a lower rate than you are claiming.
Whatever the reality, the story you share is but one snapshot of taxpaying in this country, and "fairness" is hard to determine based upon a single case study. Since the median income in the U.S. is today approximately $42,000 a year (which is why a wage-earning individual earning $250K is not truly "middle-class" in the professional opinion of most economists and other financial "experts"), let's examine another case study so we can make a comparison. Let's look at a typical wage earner who is truly middle-class. Let's call him Joe Average, pretend he is a sixth year elementary school teacher, and give him a family of four. Obviously, we know he can't afford a three- or four-bedroom home in Sunnyvale, let alone a $4500 monthly mortgage. Chances are, he won't be able to live in the Bay Area, at all … but since he does, he obviously hasn't "earned" the privilege of buying an $800K home in a swank and comfortable neighborhood (although, from an objective point of view, he has probably spent as much time and as much money on his college education, and works just as hard as you do … or, since he is a teacher, he actually puts in much longer hours than you do and has the constant and unrelenting stress of intense personal contact with about three dozen attention starved children for a good six hours of his workday). The chances are quite high that his wife also works, and their joint income might be a little higher than $42K (let's say it's $85K). In that salary range, they might be able to hang on to a $2000 monthly mortgage, but more than likely, they rent. If this is the case, then this means that unlike you, all of their housing payments (relatively just as painful relative to their income as your mortgage payment) create absolutely no future equity for them. They have the exact same expenses that you do, though they may purchase and gas up a used Subaru or even a Kia instead of a new $25K auto. And so it goes.
Without going into any more detail, I am sure you can see where this is heading. In the end, even though you have more money taken from your income in the form of taxes than does Joe Average (and the only tax you pay that he may not be liable for is the state property tax, which of course has that long-term effect I mentioned above … namely, you gain equity and he does not), you have an awful lot more to show for it than does he. Which I guess just goes to show the true beauty of being an American: Through the choices you made, your skill and hard work, and possibly some good fortune smiling upon you, you make good money and live a fairly comfortable life; Joe, because of the choices he made, his skill and hard work, and maybe even some good fortune, makes considerably less money but still can carve out a good place for himself and his family. Your good fortune just costs you more to maintain than does Joe's, though in the end you are materially much better off than is he.
Finally, I would like to respond to two separate comments that you made. Your opening paragraph does not make much sense. We live in the United States of America. One of the primary functions of our federal government is to protect us from foreign and domestic enemies. That is not an unusual provision for a state to include in its charter – whether the charter is formally recorded or just assumed to exist. Thomas Jefferson argued that we should not have a standing army, and for the longest time the U.S. did not have one. Most people today think we need one. Are you suggesting that we disband all branches of the military and revert to a National Guard or a state militia for our national defense? I mean, I think our military is way overblown and excessively funded, but even I recognize the need for a permanent military force.
And I find your concluding argument that our elected government is no better than a gang of thieves to be overly simplistic and wildly unfactual. On several counts. No one has ever said (including myself) that someone earning $250K is "rich". But people earning that much money are at the very least in the upper 5% of income earners in this country (most likely the upper 2%), which is pretty heady turf. It's all relative, don't you know … a $250K salary in Silicon Valley is treading water territory (though the water is very warm and comfortable), whereas in Trinity County would be macmansion territory. But then, not many people in Trinity County earn $250K, and you would be foolish to move there and expect to find employment at that rate (unless you came there with the job in hand). But government does not "steal" your money, and the attitude that it does is not particularly constructive and is the basis for all sorts of mischief. So answer me this: who will build the roads on which you drive from your home in Sunnyvale to Apple Computer if government did not assess you a share of the cost for doing so? If someone other than government builds those roads, will you be able to drive on them for free? And, if someone else builds those roads, will they have a monopoly on such construction so they can plan them in a sensible way, or will hot "free market" competition create a patchwork or even a maze of conflicting, confusing, and oddly intersecting roads? I could go on, asking questions about almost everything in our lives that you apparently take for granted that are built by government, planned by government, operated by government, overseen by government (for your protection), paid for by government, and otherwise fall within the jurisdiction of a government that you can only see as a negative, oppressive thing.
We live in a federal republic. WE are government. It is us, and it does what we give it permission to do. If it does something that you don't want it to do, then either that is because your desire or want is in the minority, or because the people you have chosen to make such decisions for you are not doing the job for which you selected them. And there is certainly something you can do about that.
Joined: Mar 2008
Current Posts: 20
Shay, middle class is not an income range. I think you will find that the definition of class is really just that, about class, not about income. If it WERE meant to refer to simple numbers, the phrase would be "middle income" but the phrase is middle CLASS. The difference? Class is about occupation and necessity of labor. See, the definition of working class, for example, is an hourly employee. The definition of upper class is owners of capital...they do not labor, they OWN. An upper class person is not working, by definition. So thusly, middle class people include anyone who works for a living. If you live on your investments, you are not middle class. So, even highly paid professionals in Silicon Valley are not "upper class". They might be "upper middle class", which just means they are at the top range of what it means to be middle class, but they are distinctly not rich or wealthy, because those people, by definition, do not work. Or if they do, they do not HAVE to work.
Now that we have that straight, lets talk about your addiction to statism and why its fundamentally unfair for governments to steal our money, which is the fruit of our labor. You asked about roads, and specifically, who would build the roads? Well, who builds them today? Same people, I guess. Who pays for the roads? We do, thru our taxes. When you buy a gallon of gas in CA, 68 cents in tax gushes from your wallet into the government's bank account. That money goes to the roads (or at least, it is supposed to. Who knows where these thieves are diverting it to, we've heard the stories about how it doesn't get spent where it was supposed to). So thats one funding source, then there is also the car tax. Don't forget the smog certificate tax either. Or th